we are crushed, here at austrolabe we have been unable to bath or feed ourselves since we read the piercing insight in your post and others that you have posted elsewhere.

You obviously have some issues that you need to deal with, and we wish you all the best.

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/

Could it be that the basic concepts of “equality” and “freedom of speech and conscience” are missing?

The eight principles proposed here as well as any others based on “Islamic law” will not nake a democracy and will not protect human rights, because —- because Islam is inherently intolerant and oppressive. These discussions about ‘Islam and democracy” are only word games Muslims play to feel good (make believe stuff) without any substance; a new way to count angels on a pinhead.

Any non-Muslim living in a state based upon Islamic sharia law is a third class citizen. Period. That is what the Quran says and that is what Muslims do where they dominate. That is also why I have no respect for Islam as a religion. It teaches too much hate, anger and violence. Islam as a poltical policy is even worse. It institutionalizes and executes the religious dogma.

Abdul is right about this. Democracy – true democracy – as well as human rights and equality cannot exist in a true Islamic state. That is one reason why this kaffir dislikes Islam so much (the other reason is that Muslims cannot be honest about the Quran or the very nefarious life of their prophet).

Keep it up, build your castles in the clouds, debate this issue in detail. Ignore the hate in your religion, ignore the pain and suffering in the Muslim world and ignore the many evils that Muslims do.

John Kactuz

This is why

assalamu alaikum,
one of the links I posted above (the one in the word “answered”) seems to have a problem. This is the link again. Inshallah this time it works.

wassalamu alaikum

Assalamu alaikum brother Baybers

Baybers said:—————–
Most Maggi five minute fundamentalists reject out of hand any idea that a legitimate Islamic government can have the features of a democratic polity. They automatically equate an Islamic state with their own authoritarian and proto-fascist tendencies. Thus the more “Islamic” a state is, the more it is controlled by a small “purified” cabal of elite figures who do so via a mix of disproportionate police action, government control of markets and of trade, banning everything and turning out the street lights after Isha (evening prayer), because everyone should be in bed anyway
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Don’t you think you’re generalising here? According to this statment, everyone who wants to establish a caliphate is a Talibani? Is that what you were taught in school about the caliphate? Is that what the caliphate represents to you? Subhaan Allah when Muslims attack the same Caliphate that alot of Western historians praise. Subhan Allah.

Or are you going to tell me that you weren’t attacking the Caliphate, but attacking those people who claim the caliphate is not compatible with democracy. In which case, may I ask, was the Caliphates ever democratic? Are you going to stand up and say that democracy was practiced by the khulafaah of the past? That Umar (raa) held elections on whether alcohol should be sold in the market?

Baybar said:——————————————
The profound irony is, of course, these same people are generally the first and loudest refugees fleeing from such a society to set up camp in a much more congenial open democratic one.
————————————————-
So according to this statement, everyone who wants to establish the Caliphate is actually living in the West? Under the tyrannical countries, all Muslims are really in agreement with you? I do apologise my brother, but may I ask whether you have ever lived for at least a year in an Muslim majority country? Because i have and I can honestly tell you that that statement is not true. If you are refering to some particular group then it is really very unproffesional to keep on with this generalisation and through every single person into your judgment.

Baybar said:——————————–
Often this same civic society pays for their food, accommodation, telephone and medical expenses whilst they perform the worthwhile and utterly commendable public service of advocating the violent overthrow of the same said society, so that they can turn it into the authoritarian hell hole from which they escaped.
————————————————
Again, is this your concept of what a Caliphate is? A “hell hole”? According to your incredibly generalised statments, this is what you’re claiming. You see, the question is, what do you think of the Caliphate. The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ruled a state and he ruled by Islam. He (pbuh) also said in a hadith recorded by Bukhari;
Abu Hurayrah reported that the Messenger of Allah said:
“The prophets ruled over the children of Israel. Whenever a prophet died, another prophet succeeded him, but there will be no prophet after me. There will soon be Khulafaa’ and they will number many. They asked: What then do you order us? He said: Fulfil your pledge to them one after the other, and give them their dues, for verily Allah will ask them about what He entrusted them with.”

So not only did the prophet rule an Islamic state, but also khulafah which the prophet (pbuh) himself ordered the Muslims to obey. So Islamically, you are not allowed to be against the concept of an Islamic state. Islamically, you should not say “I don’t want to be ruled by a Khaleefah”.

So the question is, is democracy Islamic? I have answered this question several times so I wont go through the whole thing in details again. I will, however, just say this; why are you asking? Why are you asking whether Islam fits into democracy? If we can agree that the rule of Allah should be implemented, why are you asking this question? Unless you have doubts about Islam’s ability to rule man justly, then what exactly are you trying to reach?

Finally, in reference to your statement “the violent overthrow of the same said society, so that they can turn it into the authoritarian hell hole from which they escaped.” Again, you are generalising. Where did you gather that all Caliphatist parties want to overthrow Western regimes? I myself know of two parties that are not interested in such a thing and even think it’s silly.

Bayber said:——————————-
There are many features of a democracy that are essential to good governance and a healthy civic society. These principles have firm roots in the practice of first four Khalifahs or are at the very least compatible with the intents and purposes of Sharia. They are also features of a democracy.
————————————————–
This is exactly the problem with the ummah. It is indeed true that there are aspects of democracy that are present in Islamic rule, but how is that enough to call Islam ‘democratic’? Democracy gives homosexuality civil protection, is that present in Islam? Democracy gives the people the right to sell alcohol in public, is that present in Islam? Democracy gives the people the right to gamble in public, is that present in Islam? Democracy also gives people the right to vote, and that is indeed present in Islam, but do we jump and call Islam democratic even with all the previous points I mentioned about what else Democracy gives?

Democracy by definition is “a form of government where all the state’s decisions are exercised directly or indirectly by a majority of its citizenry through a fair elective process.” It is giving the right to the people to vote on everything whether Allah made it halaal or haraam. In other words, it is a form of government that says man would know better than Allah, wasstaghfurullah.

Alternatively we can have a government that allows what Allah made halaal and forbids what Allah made haraam and for man his ijtihaad on what is mubaah. This form of government is what we “proto-facsists” (may Allah forgive you) call for. Would there be voting? In what Allah allowed, yes. Would the khaleefah be held accountable, yes ofcourse, look up mahkamatul madhalem. IS IT DEMOCRACY? Certainly not! The simple fact that we share a few things does not emidiatly entail that the whole system is a democracy?

As for everything else you said, I completely agree with. Akhi, even if absolutly EVERYTHING in a democracy agrees with Islam (which in reality is not true as I showed above and as I showed in the two other blogs which I posted their links above as well) you still should not call it democratic. Akhi, why not just call it Islam? Why not just say, I want to live under Islamic rule that gives me such and such rights. Why call it democracy? Why even try and ask whether Islam fits into democracy? Akhi whether it fits or not, what difference would it make? Are you going to leave Islam for it?

barakallahu feek akhi and may Allah reward you for your efforts.

wassalamu alaikum

Baybers at Austrolabe hopes to start a discussion on Islam and democracy, which he believes has been either been rejected by ‘proto-fascist’ Muslim fundamentalists, or is a project only seriously engaged by those who want to ‘dismantle Islam’. I wo…