I am also interested in seeing any actual statistical information regarding how much of the “leb” youth does all these dastardly things. Does anyone know anywhere that has anything like this? I can’t imagine it to be all that much, regardless of what people like to say for the shock-effect.

Whilst there are statistics available on the rates of imprisonment for various groups (based , for example, on country of birth and citizenship), it is impossible to really measure the level of misbehaviour by a particular group because most of the behaviour that concerns people — such as behaving aggressively, intimidating people, or abusing others — is simply not captured anywhere. Yet it is this sort of ’soft crime’ or anti-social behaviour that is what people most often cite as being the problem in Sydney. This behaviour may not even reach the level of criminality but may, as you say, simply be groups of young Lebanese males cruising around in their hotted up cars. Rightly or wrong, this comes across as ‘menacing’ to some sections of the community — probably because experience or the media have led these people to believe that that particular demographic of young Lebanese male in hotted up car is ‘trouble’.

Unfortunately, the absence of hard facts such as statistics really makes it difficult for all involved to assess the extent to which young Lebanese males in Sydney are really a problem. On the one hand, we have the anti-Lebanese people arguing that it is out of control; and, on the other hand, we have the pro-Lebanese people arguing that Lebanese are no more likely to be involved in criminality than are Filipinos or Jews. I’m not sure how we can reach the truth of the matter unless we, as a society, start collecting statistics on crime based on ethnicity and making that available to both sides of the debate. If the Lebanese are really not a problem, then the statistics will allow those of us on that side of the debate to silence our critics once and for all; and if the statistics show that there is a significant problem then that will aid those who argue that there are issues.

However I think that Australia and America are better in their treatment of Muslims than many Muslim societies are of their minorities. Can you imaging if a group of Indonesian Christians would have been arrested plotting bombs against Muslims in Jakarta? There would have been a bloodbath and maybe not a single church in Jakarta would have stood. Can you imagine what would have happened in Egypt if 19 Coptics would have flown into whatever buildings they have in the center of Cairo? So, I’m not that upset about Americans and Australians hostility to Islam; it is there and Muslims are not liked, but it could be much worse.

This is why things will get worse. Muslims cannot be honest about their religion. They rarely ask ‘why’ these things happen to Muslims, and when they do, they usually blame others: the jews, racism, the crusades, the West, Bush, Howard, Blair, Hollywood, whatever….

This article is a good start, but it doesn’t begin to even approach the problem. Islam’s problem is not bigotry, discrimination, or racism. It is Islam. It is the hate and violence in the Quran. It is the life of the man Muslim call prophet – and who they consider to be a noble example to follow. Yes, Islamic writings are full of hate and violence against non-Muslims (oh, denial is thy name!) and the traditions tell of horrible things done by Muhammad and his men – including murder, torture, slavery, rape and even wife-beating. Yes, these are in the hadiths, not that Muslims want to think about them.

This hate and anger is the primary cause of the alienation and isolation of Muslim populations. They know there is a problem, but they cannot blame their religion so they must blame others. When they don’t want to blame others, they don’t know who to blame. The fact is that even moderate Muslims (like the author) don’t understand the problem, so the best they can do is a superficial analysis of the problem (as in this article) that doesn’t provide any answers.

Let me tell you what the Muslim community needs. It is honesty. They need to face the truth about Islam. They need to face the hatred and oppression that characterizes Islam wherever it dominates. They need to renounce the hate in the Quran. They need to tell non-Muslims that the evil deeds that Mohammed did were wrong. Period.

I am pessimistic. Muslims cannot be honest. Double standards are the norm. The concept of equality, respect for human rights and freedom of speech are not to be found.

The sad thing is that this denial is evident even in this moderate blog by a brave, educated Muslim with intelligent, liberal (and probably nice) Muslims readers. Nobody wants to ask the really hard questions. Nobody wants to look at the 800 pound gorilla with bloody hands in the room. Speaking of monkeys, remember the scene from “Planet of the Apes” when the hero (Heston) says at the end of the movie that he is going to “look for answers” and then the old leader of the simians tells him “Be careful, you may not like what you find”. Well, Muslims will not (should not) like what they see if they dare to look deep into the soul of Islam.

Things will get worse, much worse, and good people will get hurt.

You folks take care.

John Kactuz

I am surrounded by “leb” folks around these parts, and although I may disagree with them over a great many things, having a hotted up car and cruising around in it doesn’t equal being someone who likes to involve themselves in anti-social behaviour or criminal acts.

As for anti-Muslim sentiment, then I’ve got no doubt that a significant percentage of Australians don’t like Islam much. There have been a few social distance studies which showed, for example, that a sizeable number wouldn’t want a child to marry a Muslim, etc. However, I don’t think this is as big a problem as one might assume because whilst most people might not like or accept our religious practices, they do understand the importance of tolerating them.

Andrew Norton wrote a very interesting piece on the question of how prejudice is tempered by tolerance in The Australian after the Cronulla riots. It’s worth a read.

Unfortunately, the behavior of those lebanese men IS typical of a large group of predominantly muslim lebanese youth who have lost their religion.

The acts of a few rowdy young men, caught up in all types of heinous activities cannot be linked to their religion – if anything, it is an extreme lack of it which has caused them to turn out the way they have.

I participated in numerous events with people representing the Shire and Cronulla area, and regardless of the greviances that both “sides” of the conflict had, one thing was clear: those who instigated the violence at the beach were out of towners and not locals to the Shire. The press even reported some of those arrested coming from as far as Penrith to get to the ruck at the beach.