Comments on: Did the Command Economy kill the Khalifah? http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/ Thu, 26 Aug 2010 02:21:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc hourly 1 By: Thersites http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/comment-page-1/#comment-192990 Thersites Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:09:06 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/#comment-192990 Oops-a-daisy! Should read: Wikipedia gives the populations of the Ottoman Empire as 30 million (which I think is either an underestimate or a selective count) and of France as 20 million in 1600. I think if you counted up each province of the empire individually you would probably find a higher total. Oops-a-daisy!
Should read:

Wikipedia gives the populations of the Ottoman Empire as 30 million (which I think is either an underestimate or a selective count) and of France as 20 million in 1600. I think if you counted up each province of the empire individually you would probably find a higher total.

]]> By: Thersites http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/comment-page-1/#comment-192988 Thersites Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:06:14 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/#comment-192988 "the Ottoman Empire at its height had a population comparable to that of France" Wikipedia gives the populations of the Ottoman Empire as 30 million (which I think is either an underestimate) and of France as 20 million in 1600. "Europe was more connected to some provinces in the empire than the capital." Well, some provinces of the empire and the capital were in Europe, so older trade routes still applied. As well as that, the Ottoams were much more concerned with controlling their European provinces- the North African provinces could become effectively independent under previously governing local elites and give purely nominal loyalty to the ottomans, whereas- as happened in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries- independence for the European provinces meant a complate change of power-holder and the murder and expulsion of Turkish and native muslims. The only way the Ottomans could avoid this was by the sort of brutal rule which inspired local hostility anyway. "The last days of the Ottoman Empire were really just a forerunner to the Soviet Union." No, Toff, they weren't that bad- even the murder of the Armenians, even if the most hostile interpretation- deliberate, systematic mass murder- is accepted for the sake of argument was an aberration under the stress of war rather than a bureaucratic norm as was the case in the U.S.S.R. However, the U.S.S.R. shows the worst effects of command economy. One of the causes of its collapse was the fact that no-one knew which official statistics could be believed. “the Ottoman Empire at its height had a population comparable to that of France”
Wikipedia gives the populations of the Ottoman Empire as 30 million (which I think is either an underestimate) and of France as 20 million in 1600.

“Europe was more connected to some provinces in the empire than the capital.”
Well, some provinces of the empire and the capital were in Europe, so older trade routes still applied. As well as that, the Ottoams were much more concerned with controlling their European provinces- the North African provinces could become effectively independent under previously governing local elites and give purely nominal loyalty to the ottomans, whereas- as happened in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries- independence for the European provinces meant a complate change of power-holder and the murder and expulsion of Turkish and native muslims. The only way the Ottomans could avoid this was by the sort of brutal rule which inspired local hostility anyway.

“The last days of the Ottoman Empire were really just a forerunner to the Soviet Union.”
No, Toff, they weren’t that bad- even the murder of the Armenians, even if the most hostile interpretation- deliberate, systematic mass murder- is accepted for the sake of argument was an aberration under the stress of war rather than a bureaucratic norm as was the case in the U.S.S.R. However, the U.S.S.R. shows the worst effects of command economy. One of the causes of its collapse was the fact that no-one knew which official statistics could be believed.

]]> By: George Carty http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/comment-page-1/#comment-192766 George Carty Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:18:46 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/#comment-192766 Didn't underpopulation (the Ottoman Empire at its height had a population comparable to that of France) and difficult terrain (which made railway construction ruinously expensive) also play a part? Didn’t underpopulation (the Ottoman Empire at its height had a population comparable to that of France) and difficult terrain (which made railway construction ruinously expensive) also play a part?

]]> By: Abu Hatem أبو حاتم » Command Economy and the Ottomans http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/comment-page-1/#comment-162021 Abu Hatem أبو حاتم » Command Economy and the Ottomans Mon, 01 Dec 2008 13:47:22 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/#comment-162021 [...] Austrolabe, an Australian Muslim blog, on how command economy reforms destroyed the Ottoman Islamic monarchy.  I am in complete agreement:  An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire by Prof. Halil Inalcik is an excellent resource for anyone who wishes to understand, in detail, the nature of Ottoman economics. It is particularly interesting, for example, to note that one of the reasons that the author gives for the decline of Ottoman economic power relative to Europe was that the Ottomans had implemented a command economy and found themselves unable to compete with the dynamic free markets of Europe. [...] [...] Austrolabe, an Australian Muslim blog, on how command economy reforms destroyed the Ottoman Islamic monarchy.  I am in complete agreement:  An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire by Prof. Halil Inalcik is an excellent resource for anyone who wishes to understand, in detail, the nature of Ottoman economics. It is particularly interesting, for example, to note that one of the reasons that the author gives for the decline of Ottoman economic power relative to Europe was that the Ottomans had implemented a command economy and found themselves unable to compete with the dynamic free markets of Europe. [...]

]]> By: Simon http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/comment-page-1/#comment-71833 Simon Sat, 23 Feb 2008 06:49:03 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/#comment-71833 Abdullah, if you look at the HT proposed constitution for the Islamic society, it reads like a communist manifesto. http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.info/english/constitution.htm You think HT believe in economic freedom, free trade and private property? Look at these articles in their constitution... <blockquote> Article 155 The State supervises agricultural affairs and their products in accordance with the needs of the agricultural policy, so as to achieve the potential of the land to its greatest level of production. Article 156 The State supervises the whole affairs of industry. It directly undertakes those industries included in the public property.</blockquote> Abdullah, if you look at the HT proposed constitution for the Islamic society, it reads like a communist manifesto.

http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.info.....tution.htm

You think HT believe in economic freedom, free trade and private property? Look at these articles in their constitution…

Article 155

The State supervises agricultural affairs and their products in accordance with the needs of the agricultural policy, so as to achieve the potential of the land to its greatest level of production.

Article 156
The State supervises the whole affairs of industry. It directly undertakes those industries included in the public property.

]]> By: dawud http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/comment-page-1/#comment-71673 dawud Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:04:17 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/#comment-71673 Toff, who precisely suggests that? ["Ottoman rule was just all mung beans and rainbows with little children frolicking in rivers of chocolate."] I know a lot of muslims, though, who suggest that the Ottomans were no worse than any other empire at the time, and considerably better than what has replaced them in the MENA region, or in the so-called 'muslim countries' - having heard the Arab nationalist argument many times that the Ottomans "stole our wealth, built huge monuments and palaces, and kept us ignorant" - I would ask how are your current rulers better, and doesn't your complaint describe them accurately? Toff, who precisely suggests that? ["Ottoman rule was just all mung beans and rainbows with little children frolicking in rivers of chocolate."] I know a lot of muslims, though, who suggest that the Ottomans were no worse than any other empire at the time, and considerably better than what has replaced them in the MENA region, or in the so-called ‘muslim countries’ – having heard the Arab nationalist argument many times that the Ottomans “stole our wealth, built huge monuments and palaces, and kept us ignorant” – I would ask how are your current rulers better, and doesn’t your complaint describe them accurately?

]]> By: Abdullah http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/comment-page-1/#comment-71642 Abdullah Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:06:05 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/#comment-71642 Which HT manifestos call for a command economy? I thought HT literature was pretty clear that state intervention in the market of the price, production level fixing sort was not part of the Islam economic system. References suggesting otherwise would be appreciated. Wasalam Which HT manifestos call for a command economy? I thought HT literature was pretty clear that state intervention in the market of the price, production level fixing sort was not part of the Islam economic system. References suggesting otherwise would be appreciated.

Wasalam

]]> By: Toff http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/comment-page-1/#comment-71529 Toff Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:59:38 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/#comment-71529 It's a pity some Muslims continue to think Ottoman rule was just all mung beans and rainbows with little children frolicking in rivers of chocolate. The last days of the Ottoman Empire were really just a forerunner to the Soviet Union. It’s a pity some Muslims continue to think Ottoman rule was just all mung beans and rainbows with little children frolicking in rivers of chocolate. The last days of the Ottoman Empire were really just a forerunner to the Soviet Union.

]]> By: Baybers http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/comment-page-1/#comment-2262 Baybers Thu, 16 Nov 2006 21:23:13 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/#comment-2262 Cuba and North Korea come to mind immediately, but I'm sure there are others Cuba and North Korea come to mind immediately, but I’m sure there are others

]]> By: Vikki http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/comment-page-1/#comment-2233 Vikki Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:59:14 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/10/24/did-the-command-economy-kill-the-khalifah/#comment-2233 what countries are part of the command economy? i'm doing a project in my school, and i need to know. what countries are part of the command economy? i’m doing a project in my school, and i need to know.

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