Comments on: Time for some context in the debate about the Mufti http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/ Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:12:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc hourly 1 By: dezhen http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/comment-page-1/#comment-2102 dezhen Sat, 11 Nov 2006 04:31:15 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/#comment-2102 I agree, we do not need this. My point in using them as an example, however, was to show that there is a sizeable amounf ot Imams in Australia who do not see the Shaykh as Mufti. Plus (I would guess) most of the other Turkish Hocas who work in the various Dergah's and other associations as well, although not directly connected to the Diyanet. That was some good info though - thanks a lot! :) I agree, we do not need this. My point in using them as an example, however, was to show that there is a sizeable amounf ot Imams in Australia who do not see the Shaykh as Mufti. Plus (I would guess) most of the other Turkish Hocas who work in the various Dergah’s and other associations as well, although not directly connected to the Diyanet.

That was some good info though – thanks a lot! :)

]]> By: Ibrahim http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/comment-page-1/#comment-2101 Ibrahim Sat, 11 Nov 2006 02:32:57 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/#comment-2101 No bro. I meant that it was an issue that the Turkish government is tighly controlling every aspect of the mosques right down to whether the imams shave or not. I don't think it's good for a foreign government to meddle in Australian mosques especially a government that oppresses Muslims like Turkey. I just mentioned the beard as an example. No bro. I meant that it was an issue that the Turkish government is tighly controlling every aspect of the mosques right down to whether the imams shave or not. I don’t think it’s good for a foreign government to meddle in Australian mosques especially a government that oppresses Muslims like Turkey. I just mentioned the beard as an example.

]]> By: dezhen http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/comment-page-1/#comment-2095 dezhen Fri, 10 Nov 2006 20:23:43 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/#comment-2095 <b>Aussie in Medina:</b> Sure thing, this is exactly what I was trying to show with the quote: it effectively looks like those who do see him as representing them, basically see him as any number of other Muslims see their own Imams. The issue is that this is blown out of context because of the lofty title and airs. <b>Ibrahim:</b> The issue of being an Imam comes down to having a beard? Aussie in Medina: Sure thing, this is exactly what I was trying to show with the quote: it effectively looks like those who do see him as representing them, basically see him as any number of other Muslims see their own Imams. The issue is that this is blown out of context because of the lofty title and airs.

Ibrahim: The issue of being an Imam comes down to having a beard?

]]> By: Ibrahim http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/comment-page-1/#comment-2090 Ibrahim Fri, 10 Nov 2006 13:21:49 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/#comment-2090 Also, just to clarify what Dezhen wrote above. Diyanet Isleri runs most of the Turkish mosques in Australia and they are part of the Turkish government. They bring imams in every couple of years and control what is taught and even how the imams look and dress. Has anyone ever seen an imam in a diyanet controlled mosque that wears a beard? Exactly. So be careful what you wish for, guys. Also, just to clarify what Dezhen wrote above. Diyanet Isleri runs most of the Turkish mosques in Australia and they are part of the Turkish government. They bring imams in every couple of years and control what is taught and even how the imams look and dress. Has anyone ever seen an imam in a diyanet controlled mosque that wears a beard? Exactly.

So be careful what you wish for, guys.

]]> By: Aussie In Medina http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/comment-page-1/#comment-2089 Aussie In Medina Fri, 10 Nov 2006 13:19:27 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/#comment-2089 dezhen: Whether we like it or not, the idea of a 'Mufti of Australia and New Zealand' does give the impression to the rest of the community that he is our community spokesperson and the highest authority figure in the religion in Australia. Whether done deliberately or not by Sh. Taj, he is seen as the spokesperson for Australian Muslims because of this title. Do you think non-Muslims understand that the position was simply created to keep him from being deported and actually has no value to the rest of the community? So I do think that is vastly different to when any other Muslim sheikh or imam speaks on issues. They aren't seen by the wider community as representing all Muslims. dezhen: Whether we like it or not, the idea of a ‘Mufti of Australia and New Zealand’ does give the impression to the rest of the community that he is our community spokesperson and the highest authority figure in the religion in Australia. Whether done deliberately or not by Sh. Taj, he is seen as the spokesperson for Australian Muslims because of this title. Do you think non-Muslims understand that the position was simply created to keep him from being deported and actually has no value to the rest of the community?

So I do think that is vastly different to when any other Muslim sheikh or imam speaks on issues. They aren’t seen by the wider community as representing all Muslims.

]]> By: dezhen http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/comment-page-1/#comment-2077 dezhen Fri, 10 Nov 2006 05:22:19 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/#comment-2077 My issue, is that as was explained on <a href="http://news.sbs.com.au/insight/trans.php?transid=990" rel="nofollow">Insight</a>: <blockquote>The second issue is that the Mufti never ever put himself as a spokesperson for the community. He's a point of religious reference. As a Mufti, he's the person that people go to for religious interpretation. What does this verse mean? What does this mean? ... He's a leader because we put him up as a leader because we think that just because he's the religious arbiter, the person who can give interpretations...</blockquote> What, then, does every other Imam and Shaykh in the multitude of communities do that is different? My issue, is that as was explained on Insight:

The second issue is that the Mufti never ever put himself as a spokesperson for the community. He’s a point of religious reference. As a Mufti, he’s the person that people go to for religious interpretation. What does this verse mean? What does this mean?

…

He’s a leader because we put him up as a leader because we think that just because he’s the religious arbiter, the person who can give interpretations…

What, then, does every other Imam and Shaykh in the multitude of communities do that is different?

]]> By: Aussie In Medina http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/comment-page-1/#comment-2076 Aussie In Medina Fri, 10 Nov 2006 05:12:26 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/#comment-2076 In Victoria (which is where the second highest population of Muslims in Australia reside), I'm yet to meet anyone (whether it is one of the Imams or a normal layperson) who would consider Sh. Taj their 'Mufti'. In fact, before we saw on the news that we had someone called the 'Mufti of Australia', we didn't know one existed. I really think that you would be unlikely to meet someone outside of Sydney that would consider him the Mufti. As dezhen mentioned, the Turkish community (which makes up one of the biggest segments of the Muslim population) has their own system of Imams and heads which have nothing to do with the rest of the community. Various other groups (whether based on cultural or ideological differences) have their own leaders and people they follow. The Mufti position gives the idea to the rest of the population that one man speaks for the Muslim community and that is such a false and misleading view that it should be removed immediately. In Victoria (which is where the second highest population of Muslims in Australia reside), I’m yet to meet anyone (whether it is one of the Imams or a normal layperson) who would consider Sh. Taj their ‘Mufti’. In fact, before we saw on the news that we had someone called the ‘Mufti of Australia’, we didn’t know one existed.

I really think that you would be unlikely to meet someone outside of Sydney that would consider him the Mufti.

As dezhen mentioned, the Turkish community (which makes up one of the biggest segments of the Muslim population) has their own system of Imams and heads which have nothing to do with the rest of the community. Various other groups (whether based on cultural or ideological differences) have their own leaders and people they follow.

The Mufti position gives the idea to the rest of the population that one man speaks for the Muslim community and that is such a false and misleading view that it should be removed immediately.

]]> By: dezhen http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/comment-page-1/#comment-2072 dezhen Fri, 10 Nov 2006 04:07:29 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/#comment-2072 Well, apart from the projection by the media and the government (remembering that AFIC was the one who originally appointed him - they have marginal support here in Sydney, and currently have their own issues to deal with) it is unclear how much wider Muslim support he has outside of the Arab (specifically Lebanese) community. Maybe some of the posters here can actually fill us all in? Apart from the obvious issue of the linguistic barrier and such (how many languages are covered by the Muslims here?), as well as not having a professional team of liason officers, people to translate and advise and so on, which all need to be considered too if you ask me. This is specifically for intra-Muslim dialogue, but of course it is also needed for wider Australian community relations. I know that, for example, the next biggest (% wise) and longest standing "ethnic" group is the Turks, and they have their own Imams who are connected to the Turkish Diyanet (Religious authority). They have their own heirarchy, with state heads and an Australian overseer that delegates and organises all the Imams. It is pure business-like, and I am constantly amazed by their organisation. It is clear that they at least don't view Sh. Taj as a Mufti in any way, and this opinion has to be given weight - even if only numerically. I have not had much experience with other groups, but would imagine a similar feeling. Can anyone else help fill gaps? Well, apart from the projection by the media and the government (remembering that AFIC was the one who originally appointed him – they have marginal support here in Sydney, and currently have their own issues to deal with) it is unclear how much wider Muslim support he has outside of the Arab (specifically Lebanese) community. Maybe some of the posters here can actually fill us all in?

Apart from the obvious issue of the linguistic barrier and such (how many languages are covered by the Muslims here?), as well as not having a professional team of liason officers, people to translate and advise and so on, which all need to be considered too if you ask me. This is specifically for intra-Muslim dialogue, but of course it is also needed for wider Australian community relations.

I know that, for example, the next biggest (% wise) and longest standing “ethnic” group is the Turks, and they have their own Imams who are connected to the Turkish Diyanet (Religious authority). They have their own heirarchy, with state heads and an Australian overseer that delegates and organises all the Imams. It is pure business-like, and I am constantly amazed by their organisation. It is clear that they at least don’t view Sh. Taj as a Mufti in any way, and this opinion has to be given weight – even if only numerically.

I have not had much experience with other groups, but would imagine a similar feeling. Can anyone else help fill gaps?

]]> By: Mantra http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/comment-page-1/#comment-2071 Mantra Fri, 10 Nov 2006 03:49:07 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/#comment-2071 How is his authority limited exactly, is it simply because he is projected as the Mufti as Australia by the Australian govt. (and others)? Or is it something more? How is his authority limited exactly, is it simply because he is projected as the Mufti as Australia by the Australian govt. (and others)? Or is it something more?

]]> By: dezhen http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/comment-page-1/#comment-2035 dezhen Thu, 09 Nov 2006 08:55:49 +0000 http://austrolabe.com/2006/11/06/time-for-some-context-in-the-debate-about-the-mufti/#comment-2035 The problem is that such people generally have no connection with Muslims outside of their immediate community, let alone with people in NZ or the other Islands scattered about within the national boundaries. This is a real issue which needs to be addressed, and at the grass-roots level. The problem is that such people generally have no connection with Muslims outside of their immediate community, let alone with people in NZ or the other Islands scattered about within the national boundaries.

This is a real issue which needs to be addressed, and at the grass-roots level.

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