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	<title>Comments on: Free Will and Freedom</title>
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	<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/</link>
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		<title>By: Robot</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-4356</link>
		<dc:creator>Robot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 19:39:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/#comment-4356</guid>
		<description>The ashari theory makes everything even more dependent on god&#039;s will and determinism. There is only one cause- god- and one consequence- the whole universe. There&#039;s the further complication that- as god is outside time and knows everything that happens- god creates the whole universe in every dimension including time as one act at one &quot;moment&quot; which means free will is impossible too. It&#039;s perfectly possible that the moment in time when god creates the universe is in the future and we are- in &quot;real time&quot; merely witing for god to make us and the universe.

If &quot;good actions are good because God alone considers these actions to be good&quot; then goodness is as arbitrarily defined as the rules of a game, and god, in fact, is not good in himself because god exists independently of good and evil.  God can only be good if there is a measure of goodness that exists separately from god. However, if there is such a measure it looks very much as though god isn&#039;t actually good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ashari theory makes everything even more dependent on god&#8217;s will and determinism. There is only one cause- god- and one consequence- the whole universe. There&#8217;s the further complication that- as god is outside time and knows everything that happens- god creates the whole universe in every dimension including time as one act at one &#8220;moment&#8221; which means free will is impossible too. It&#8217;s perfectly possible that the moment in time when god creates the universe is in the future and we are- in &#8220;real time&#8221; merely witing for god to make us and the universe.</p>
<p>If &#8220;good actions are good because God alone considers these actions to be good&#8221; then goodness is as arbitrarily defined as the rules of a game, and god, in fact, is not good in himself because god exists independently of good and evil.  God can only be good if there is a measure of goodness that exists separately from god. However, if there is such a measure it looks very much as though god isn&#8217;t actually good.</p>
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		<title>By: Baybers</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-4305</link>
		<dc:creator>Baybers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 01:29:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This is an interesting discussion, one which would have been groundbreaking if we had it a thousand years ago, u the classical Islamic position remains unchanged and (not for the first time) has been copied by European thinkers (&lt;a href=&quot;http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/malebranche/&quot;&gt;Nicolas Malebranche&lt;/a&gt;).

This is the Ashari doctrine. Previously there were two competing views, the first was the determinism school of thought (ie that God alone is the sole author of events) but the obvious rejoinder is where is the mercy of God if he punishes humans for actions that are entirely his own?

The alternative or Mutalizzite view (Aristotelean) was that man was an independent author of his own actions. The Islamic rejoinder to this is that if man is the creator of his own actions than God as creator has been limited.

The Ashari doctrine is that all matter at its core consists of single particles (or units of matter) and that these are created and vanish instantaneously ie that they have no duration, the doctrine is one of &quot;occasionalism&quot;

Thus there is no natural causality in the world, one can say that act a predictably gives rise to act b, because as a mercy of Allah to his creation , he acts predictably).

The Ashari theology is &quot;scientifically&quot; the most correct way to understand causation in the world. Stephen Hawking&#039;s brief history of time sums up the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.williamjames.com/Theory/PHYSICS.htm&quot;&gt;new physics&lt;/a&gt; very eloquently, sub- atomic particles can not be spoken of as particles alone in time. Thus we cannot speak meaningfully of the generation of acts.

The next issue that arises is one of theodicy, or the nature of evil. The Ashari view is that there is no intrinsic good and evil to any action beyond what God considers these actions to be. ie good actions are good because God alone considers these actions to be good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an interesting discussion, one which would have been groundbreaking if we had it a thousand years ago, u the classical Islamic position remains unchanged and (not for the first time) has been copied by European thinkers (<a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/malebranche/">Nicolas Malebranche</a>).</p>
<p>This is the Ashari doctrine. Previously there were two competing views, the first was the determinism school of thought (ie that God alone is the sole author of events) but the obvious rejoinder is where is the mercy of God if he punishes humans for actions that are entirely his own?</p>
<p>The alternative or Mutalizzite view (Aristotelean) was that man was an independent author of his own actions. The Islamic rejoinder to this is that if man is the creator of his own actions than God as creator has been limited.</p>
<p>The Ashari doctrine is that all matter at its core consists of single particles (or units of matter) and that these are created and vanish instantaneously ie that they have no duration, the doctrine is one of &#8220;occasionalism&#8221;</p>
<p>Thus there is no natural causality in the world, one can say that act a predictably gives rise to act b, because as a mercy of Allah to his creation , he acts predictably).</p>
<p>The Ashari theology is &#8220;scientifically&#8221; the most correct way to understand causation in the world. Stephen Hawking&#8217;s brief history of time sums up the <a href="http://www.williamjames.com/Theory/PHYSICS.htm">new physics</a> very eloquently, sub- atomic particles can not be spoken of as particles alone in time. Thus we cannot speak meaningfully of the generation of acts.</p>
<p>The next issue that arises is one of theodicy, or the nature of evil. The Ashari view is that there is no intrinsic good and evil to any action beyond what God considers these actions to be. ie good actions are good because God alone considers these actions to be good.</p>
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		<title>By: Robot</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-4275</link>
		<dc:creator>Robot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 14:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/#comment-4275</guid>
		<description>Well, I&#039;m not a believer, and one reason I&#039;m not is that I think that there is a complete opposition between free will and an all-knowing god. I was referring to free will in the general philosiphical/psychological sense with reference to the various nonreligious theories of determinism. That&#039;s why i was interested in you reference to dealing with the muslim attitude in another post- I don&#039;t, myself, think that qualtum theory helps the muslim/christian view, but I&#039;d be interested to see why you think it does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I&#8217;m not a believer, and one reason I&#8217;m not is that I think that there is a complete opposition between free will and an all-knowing god. I was referring to free will in the general philosiphical/psychological sense with reference to the various nonreligious theories of determinism. That&#8217;s why i was interested in you reference to dealing with the muslim attitude in another post- I don&#8217;t, myself, think that qualtum theory helps the muslim/christian view, but I&#8217;d be interested to see why you think it does.</p>
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		<title>By: dezhen</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-4246</link>
		<dc:creator>dezhen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 03:07:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree with you wholeheartedly.

But surely that in effect means that the Godhead/Creator/Supreme Being/whatever that believers follow can be said to dictate even what we perceive as &quot;free&quot;? Specifically in the Abrahamic traditions, as you mentioned above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you wholeheartedly.</p>
<p>But surely that in effect means that the Godhead/Creator/Supreme Being/whatever that believers follow can be said to dictate even what we perceive as &#8220;free&#8221;? Specifically in the Abrahamic traditions, as you mentioned above.</p>
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		<title>By: Robot</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-4208</link>
		<dc:creator>Robot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jan 2007 12:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/#comment-4208</guid>
		<description>Of course we don&#039;t have absolute free will, Dezhen. However, if we know about the limitations on it we can more effectively exercise the free will we do have. Someone with a genetic tendency to alcoholism who knows about it and doesn&#039;t drink alcohol is in a better position than someone who doesn&#039;t know and assumes they can be  a conventional moderate drinker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course we don&#8217;t have absolute free will, Dezhen. However, if we know about the limitations on it we can more effectively exercise the free will we do have. Someone with a genetic tendency to alcoholism who knows about it and doesn&#8217;t drink alcohol is in a better position than someone who doesn&#8217;t know and assumes they can be  a conventional moderate drinker.</p>
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		<title>By: dezhen</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-4177</link>
		<dc:creator>dezhen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jan 2007 22:31:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/#comment-4177</guid>
		<description>But surely Robot, knowing these &quot;limitations&quot; simply shows us that we do not have absolute free will at all then? There are limits, and restrictions on our choices, based on pre-existing conditions and norms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But surely Robot, knowing these &#8220;limitations&#8221; simply shows us that we do not have absolute free will at all then? There are limits, and restrictions on our choices, based on pre-existing conditions and norms.</p>
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		<title>By: Robot</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-4150</link>
		<dc:creator>Robot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jan 2007 09:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/#comment-4150</guid>
		<description>Sorry- a lot of my last post didn&#039;t get through~:
The more we know about our restrictions the more free will we can actually exercise. someone who doesn&#039;t know about gravity and its effects may exercise their free will to step through a twentieth storey window, but they&#039;ll never exercise it again. Equally a diabetic or someone who nows that they are more likely to become violent in particular circumstances can choose to avoid those situations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry- a lot of my last post didn&#8217;t get through~:<br />
The more we know about our restrictions the more free will we can actually exercise. someone who doesn&#8217;t know about gravity and its effects may exercise their free will to step through a twentieth storey window, but they&#8217;ll never exercise it again. Equally a diabetic or someone who nows that they are more likely to become violent in particular circumstances can choose to avoid those situations.</p>
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		<title>By: Robot</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-4095</link>
		<dc:creator>Robot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/#comment-4095</guid>
		<description>Well, an omnipotent god, by definition, is responsible for everything that happens. This doesn&#039;t apply only to islam but to all the Abrahamic religions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, an omnipotent god, by definition, is responsible for everything that happens. This doesn&#8217;t apply only to islam but to all the Abrahamic religions.</p>
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		<title>By: Baybers</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-4087</link>
		<dc:creator>Baybers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jan 2007 10:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/#comment-4087</guid>
		<description>The first part of your comment is a very important discussion in all theistic religions.

To what extent in an Omnipotent and merciful God(Allah SWT) responsible for the actions of individuals and to what extent are they autonomous authors of their own actions?

The complete answer to that question is actually several textbooks long,( and I might add Islamic theology here is supported by our current understanding of Quantum mechanics)

I may get around to posting the answer as a separate post.

As for the science discussed in this article, the evidence base is not great and it would be best to describe it as a hypothesis which is supported by some evidence but contradicted by other evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first part of your comment is a very important discussion in all theistic religions.</p>
<p>To what extent in an Omnipotent and merciful God(Allah SWT) responsible for the actions of individuals and to what extent are they autonomous authors of their own actions?</p>
<p>The complete answer to that question is actually several textbooks long,( and I might add Islamic theology here is supported by our current understanding of Quantum mechanics)</p>
<p>I may get around to posting the answer as a separate post.</p>
<p>As for the science discussed in this article, the evidence base is not great and it would be best to describe it as a hypothesis which is supported by some evidence but contradicted by other evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: Robot</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-4084</link>
		<dc:creator>Robot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jan 2007 09:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/01/02/free-will-and-freedom/#comment-4084</guid>
		<description>Doesn&#039;t islam- with its doctrine that god knows the whole future and so determines our every action- do quite a lot of damage to the concept of free will itself? In fact, if people know about the environmental and genetic factors that influence their behaviour and can take steps to stop them doing so, aren&#039;t they freer than they are if they are unaware of them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doesn&#8217;t islam- with its doctrine that god knows the whole future and so determines our every action- do quite a lot of damage to the concept of free will itself? In fact, if people know about the environmental and genetic factors that influence their behaviour and can take steps to stop them doing so, aren&#8217;t they freer than they are if they are unaware of them?</p>
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