Yesterday, Channel Four’s (UK) Dispatches program featured a documentary called Undercover Mosque.
A Dispatches reporter attends mosques run by organisations whose public faces are presented as moderate and finds preachers condemning integration into British society, condemning democracy and praising the Taliban for killing British soldiers.
The result is a fifty minute documentary (video below) which depicts a number of well-known figures, including Australia’s own Sheikh Faiz Muhammad, saying some fairly inflammatory things about non-Muslims and, of course, homosexuals. Whilst the frequent appearance of Sheikh Faiz in the documentary is a sign that, finally, Australia is emerging from the shadow of Mother England in at least one domain, the overall message of this documentary is an unremittingly negative one.
Perhaps, if there is one overwhelming lesson in all of this, it is that imams and religious leaders need to think very carefully about what they are saying.
The documentary is broken into six parts.
Part One
Part Two
Part Three
Part Four
Part Five
Part Six
Abu Usamah’s Response
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5621979422472502457
Yasir Qadhi’s Comments
Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips’ Response
Responses
Naturally, the documentary has sparked a lot of debate and generated some varied responses. We’ll add to this incrementally.
In response to the film, British Muslim blogger Kashif writes:
What were Abu Usama And Faiz thinking when making the statements they did? What they said was devoid of any understanding of the context of the time and place we are living in. And the more i think about it, the more i’m sure that brothers such as these have little or no interaction with non-Muslims because its impossible to hold such views and express them so boldly in the UK in 2007 if you’re meeting non-Muslims regularly. They need to move on from describing the UK/Western populace as gays, controlled by Jews, etc.
Abu Usama has offered his own video response to the program.
Green Lane Masjid, one of the mosques featured in the program, writes in a press release:
It is extremely disappointing but not at all surprising that Dispatches has chosen to portray Muslims in the worst possible light. Dispatches has opted for sensationalism over substance with total disregard for peaceful community relations.
This so-called “undercover” investigation merely panders to age-old anti-Muslim prejudices by employing the time-honoured tradition of cherry picking statements and presenting them in the most inflammatory manner.
Thabet writes:
There was also a slightly bizarre moment when they showed one preacher declaring Islam to be superior to all other religions. This, to me, is like saying the sun appears to be a bit yellow and just a tad warm, considering just about everyone, religious or secular, usually affirms the superiority of their views as opposed to the views of their ‘opponents’. Indeed, the end of history is not only something religious people believe in but many secular ideologies also promote (e.g. neoliberals and Marxists). Religious people are just usually more open about telling others of their convictions.
Inayat Bunglawala responds to the program, arguing that Muslims, “need to be more vigilant in trying to ensure that their premises are not used to promote vitriol.”
Abu Ameenah Bilal Phillips’ letter [pdf] to the producers.
Salafi Manhaj Research’s response [pdf] to the question of whether Saudi Arabia promotes extremism.
Call to Islam Research’s response [pdf] to the issue of the young marriage of Aisha (r) that was brought up in the program as part of their coverage of Abu Ameenah Bilal Phillips.
Sheikh Yasir Qadhi (not featured in the program) has a video response available here.
42 comments ↓
The Islamic University of Medina is a lot like a computer: garbage in, garbage out. This is what happens when people from the street learn a bit of religion. They come back with a few fiqh rulings, a few Arabic words, but with the same ghetto attitudes.
On Kashif’s point, regardless of religion when one becomes extremely isolated they begin to think that characatures of “the other” reflect the reality. Whites who are around only whites tend to have more stereotypes of non-whites than those who know and mix with non-whites for example.
The same is the case with Muslims. We isolate ourselves to the point that we seem to think that every single person of another religion is out to get us or in on a conspiracy against Islam.
[...] *update* there is a good post at austrolabe summarizing this and some of the other things being written on the subject. [...]
Why are they complaining?, they are only being good Muslims and following the prophets example.
There is going to be an american version of this on the Frontline program on PBS for any interested.
My first thought was; what a bunch of ignorant teenages.
Perhaps, if there is one overwhelming lesson in all of this, it is that imams and religious leaders need to think very carefully about what they are saying.
With respect, nobody needs or wants hypocritical religious leaders. The problem with these guys is not that they choose their words carelessly, it’s that they’re intemperate bigots.
Good Post.
Isn’t it the case that most ‘Sheikh’ titles are honorifics? They aren’t actually conferred officially? If so, why are people still referring to this murderous scumbag as ‘Sheikh’? They still respect him?
It depends what you mean my “officially”. I am sure many of these guys have graduated from a course of study at one or another Islamic university or seminary in the Middle East or elsewhere, such as the University of Medina.
But the ironic thing is that I am close friends with 2 Medina University graduates, and neither of them demonstrate the rabid lunacy that these folks do, even though they spend between 6-8yrs there. In fact, they are generally quite the opposite. So I don’t even think you can target specific places necessarily – it must be more than this – perhaps to do with specific teachers or something, I am not sure…
[...] For more info on this topic visit the blog of Austrolabe where a discussion is going on along with video linkage. [...]
Hey lots of idiotic comments come from religious so called leaders of other religions….Its just the ones from Muslims get the press at the moment….
Australians like me realise that these comments do not represent the feelings of the vast majority of Muslims in Australia.
If anything some of these comments work towards building bridges between us.
Sometimes saying something Silly will get you more publicity than saying something smart too.
Muhammed,
I resent your characterization of those who have graduated from the uni in Madinah. THere are too many out there who have gone there and come out with more knowledge to spread to the Muslims. Yes, there are some ghetto people with the same ghetto attitude. By the way, does ghetto mean black?
I just saw Abu Usamah’s eesponse, and I do believe him.
For those who are interested, I’ve added Sh Yasir Qadhi’s video response to the program above (recorded from the Islam Channel) and a letter from Sh Abu Ameenah Bilal Phillips to the producers. There have also been some other documents dealing with the broader question of Saudi influence, etc. that have been released as a response to the program. These have also been added.
The game is about divide and conque. Nothing else.
Today is “Wahhabism”, tomorrow “Sufism”
bikhair, ghetto means ghetto – if you don’t know about the gang members and ex-criminals who convert to Islam, mostly in prison, then go to Saudi to study – you’re not paying attention in England and the North-East US. call it radical or extremist ’salafabism’ or idiocy if you like, but I’m sure you’re aware of the takfiri groups calling for this, and putting out webpages that praise suicide bombers and killing of civilians, with excuses for their arab brethren while blaming America and the Sa’ud family for all their problems.
I spent time in Madinah, met several teachers from the University who told me that they were themselves afraid of some of their students, “who spend four years here and leave with the same attitudes they walked in with.” Being angry and blaming your faults on Jews and homosexuals isn’t mature, regardless of what fault lies outside, there are definitely some muslims who are sick and twisted, and not fit to be called scholars – those above such as Faiz, Usamah, and others fit into that. “They are our brothers, but they have followed misguidance after being guided” (to quote the fourth Khalif, Imam Ali, karam Allahu wajahu) Fail to see that, and you fail to see why muslims are in the condition that we’re in.
Surely, there are ’salafis’ who aren’t this crazy – abu Eesa, the Minhaj brethren, et al – but there are too many screwed-up kids who aren’t receiving any guidance, and get excuses from folk like you, who should know better.
I also laugh when I hear salafis complaining that they’re not being defended by other muslims (Yasir Qadhi and the Saudi Salafi Manhaj article above) and speak about defending other muslims while they themselves talk about the neo-con/Sufi conspiracy and daily make every muslim who doesn’t join their ‘minhaj’ as against Islam and tantamount to kafir, often saying ‘mubtadi’ and ‘mushrik’ at the very least, or ‘wilayat-ul-kufr’…
Getting your conscience together is a good thing. Being a good muslim, and not condemning other muslims in private, then calling for ‘muslim unity’ to defend oneself and one’s own group in public – is two-faced, or as we say in english, hypocritical.
It’s also false to argue that it was just the way in which the opinions were expressed was offensive – no, while we may agree that homosexuality and kufr are wrong, the great majority of muslims don’t agree with ‘hating them’ and ‘dropping walls on them’ – we may hate ignorance and disbelief, but not other human beings with faults and sins, we rather prefer guidance for them, just as the Prophet did for Abu Jahl and the Jewish lady who used to torment him. What’s wrong with his example, and why doesn’t Yasir Qadhi, may Allah teach him to follow the best of what he’s heard, and he definitely is more knowledgeable than myself, advocate this message to the ‘brothers he knows personally’, such as Faiz and Usamah? if not, he can go down along with them.
Dawud,
Brother, please, either say good of others or hold your tongue.
Why are some people using this as an opportunity to spew venom about groups or institutions they dislike? Be it Madinah university or Salafies, etc…
It’s telling that the first reactions of many Muslims when they watch this sham of a documentary is what will non-Muslims think of us now? Subhan Allah, what about your Muslim brothers who have been slandered against? Channel 4 obviously had an agenda in making this thing. Whether it be to boost ratings or villify the true voices of Islam, Allahu ‘alam.
Did you notice the images of Sheikh Khalid Yasin? Where in this mockumentary did he speak?
Regarding the other “featured” brothers, it’s just like Sheikh Qadhi stated. They take bits and pieces of their talks. Aren’t you enraged when people who try to justify their Islamophobic notions take verses of Qur’an out of context? Don’t you point out just that? These brothers deserve no less.
Sheikh Yasir Qadhi whether you like him or not is right. We need to unite. We need to stop labelling. There are more pressing issues at hand. Defend your brothers in Islam, is that too much to ask?
Interesting discussion here. I for one believe that this video from Channel 4 has very much a silver lining. For years, I have myself as has Yasir and a number of other UK lecturers tried to advise a number of the speakers, Murtaza Khan, Faiz, khalid Yasin and a few others to improve their language and not dramaticize a few verses with firey tricks and fists and to mature in their presentation of Islam. I have again and again spoken about the need to take the presentation of Islam away from the “shouting dawah” methodology towards a more intellectually stimulating manner – however little did I know that it was the iron hand of a TV program only that could tame their tiger! At the same time however, the program did not go far enough in showing unbaised reporting. For one, the program made no mention of the countless and relentless talks and khutbahs made in that very Green Lane mosque against the terrorist attacks of 7/7. Nor was there any mention of the relentless talks against terrorism and khutbahs against it that echo through the speakers of every mosque in Saudi for months after any terrorist incident – until some worshippers commented to me once after attending the khutbah of one of the Imams of the main mosque in Makkah – Was that Sheikh XYZ giving the khutbah or was it George Bush?! I think the step ahead after the dust settles from this fiasco is a few different ones:
With the speakers: Sensitivity and dawah competency training and perhaps a basic conversational english course for Imams in mosques. Add to that, legal support and training on anti-sedition laws, terrorism incitement training and some social cultural anthropology to understand society and attitudes. I only hope that they are humble enough and understand the need for this for their future dawah, however I am afraid that many of them will just resolve to leave the West and do ‘hijrah’ to the middle east.
With the general muslim public: Ah.. Where do I begin – Affirmation of faith in their religious leaders and education of the appropriate stance of Islam on the topics and matters raised in the program.
With the wider community: Promoting of understanding and dialogue, greater participation in selfless community projects that benefit the greater community and more emphasis on education and correction.
Just some thoughts. CHT
Salaams,
gess pointed me to this thread as it is something i am trying to cover on my own blog. Inshallah, I will be linking here for that purpose.
I am definitely against kuffar-bashing, as i sincerely believe all of the major problems we face today as an Ummah are due to our own inadequacies. It is not the lack of knowledge alone, but a lack of wisdom and understanding. We have become the donkeys carrying books on our backs; an analogy that Allah originally used in the Qur’an to describe the Jewish Rabbis who did not make use of the knowledge they had been blessed with to worship Allah, and practise His Deen. Rasoolallah (sallalahu ‘alayhi wa salam) warned that we would make the same mistakes as the generations of believers before us; this is simply one manifestation of that prophesy.
Saying that, I think we need to be cautious in our response to this programme. On the one hand, we cannot condone bigotry whoever is spouting it. The ayah on practising justice “even if it be against your ownselves” tells us that much. However, we cannot assume that the Dispatches producers had honest motives. Some of the responses from the Imams featured on the show make that very clear.
To be balanced and just, we have to keep our heads free and clear of enmity to both the non-Muslims and Muslims who we don’t agree with; even those who have declared takfir against other Muslims. Two wrongs never make a right, after all.
So we should avoid throwing names about and accusing people of stupidity and hatred before this has been clearly proven with hard evidence; in my mind, this does not include 10 second snippets of a one hour lecture. I suppose one useful exercise would be to get our hands on the DVDs that were featured on the show.
I know there are Muslim groups out there who condone anti-Islamic practises for the sake of Islam, even though the haram will never lead to success in this life or the next. But we cannot assume the brothers who are featured on the programme are amongst them. Even if they were to say something incorrect, it is our duty to give them nasihah [sincere advice], not to reject them as our brothers out right. The etiquette of nasihah involves respect and humility, as well as avoidance of a public display that would cause the recipient to become embarassed, insulted and potentially hostile. In this vein, i agree with Sh Yasir Qadhi’s advice where he says the Muslims should stick together, even if they have differences of opinion. However, this does not mean those who have committed an injustice should be let off scott free.
Anyway, i will stop here as the more i speak, the more i fear i will end up saying something hypocritical, a’authobillah.
May Allah guide us to the truth of this matter for the purposes of maintaining justice, and thus attaining His Pleasure; verily Allah loves justice.
Wa’salam
Yup, and checking his schools forums shows exactly what kind of “unity” and “solidarity” he is talking about. No doubt.
You say that the overwhelming lesson is that imans should be careful to think about what they say.
Are you saying this because a non-Muslim might record this? Or are you saying this because what they are saying is hateful garbage?
Its not clear (maybe its understood from other posts) but what is clear is that many Australians feel they are being lied to by Muslims.
I agree with Joe in Australia. Muslims can ask kids to die for jihad but they claim to have no violent intentions. They call Jews pigs but are not racists – just misunderstood or taken out of context. And moreover subject to unjustified oppression!
Why is Islam unpopular in dominantly Christian Australia whereas Buddhism and other religions are not? Is it just Anglo Saxon bigotry or is there a real problem that needs to be addressed?
HC, all of the above.
The hateful garbage should never have been said such as the indefensible stuff said about Jews. Even if somebody holds such views, they should have at least thought about the consequence their actions could have for all the people who don’t share their views.
At the same time, there are things that are correct but were expressed in a hideous, crass and ridiculously offensive way. It’s not necessary, for example, for Muslims to discuss homosexuality (which many Christians and Jews also believe is forbidden) by talking about stabbing lesbians in the gums with big needles or any of the other ridiculous things that were said.
Is it a Sydney thing to say “Anglo Saxon’ when referring to “old white-Australia”? Elsewhere we tend to use “Anglo-Celtic”. Small point but it’s akin to the phenomenon of Sunnis pretending that Shias don’t exist.
The difficulty with the “let’s stick together” argument seems to be that one of the ‘qualities’ of the Salafis that has drawn the ire of other groups is the very same ‘quality’ that has got some of them into trouble on these tapes. That is, the very aggressive and crass approach to da’wah which some, but not all, salafi figures promote.
sister ‘canadian muslimah’, please log on to maghrib forums, or sppubs, or TROID, or any of the other salafi groups, and find out what they’re saying about other muslims, let alone non-muslims. There is no uniting with falsehood – takfir and hatred is not defensible, not from the Sunnah – it’s quite true that there are positions from the Sunnah (covering, insistence on prayer and compulsion if necessary, opposition to homosexuality and idolatry, etc) that we all share, but to pretend like these groups deserve our backing is ridiculous. The Salafimanhaj article above describes a completely ludicrous “sufi/neo-con” conspiracy – whatever’s wrong with Kabbani, he’s not behind this – unless you think that every group that does mawlid and dhikr is also responsible for planning the Iraq war and whatnot, in which case you are as certifiably nuts as Mr. Faiz above.
By the way, saying that I think they’re nuts doesn’t mean that I want this to happen to them, or wish ill upon them, but if they would shut their damn mouths and learn to speak properly, they wouldn’t have invited this upon themselves. “Speak the truth, even if it’s bitter.”
True dat. I am happy for Muslims to “stick together”, but if someone says something out of place, or out of order, then surely it falls on those same Muslims to correct them and say that we think they are wrong.
I don’t see what is wrong with this?
Sister iMuslim,
You have expressed my own thoughts better than I could. Jazak Allah Khair.
I have made these points on another blog and have some of my own analysis on mine…
————-
I have just three points:
1) This was just the ahl-hadith organization they want after, it included Jamat-e-Islami, and I believe even Dar-ul-uloom. The only people that escaped this secret and sinister plot were the pro-regressive sufis and sadly, Abdal-Hakim Murad (who I did frankly did not expect to be in such a discourse, regardless of his venom against “wahhabis).
2) Pretty much all the scholars/tulab in the documentary (regardless of their manhaj) messed up. Plain and simple. The world is not the same anymore, old school needs to learn the lingo for the new world. You don’t have to throw away your principles, you just need to be careful of what you say, how you say it, and when you say it. Consider the audience, do they need it, is it practical knowledge, is it beneficial knowledge? For instance, the salaf did take great pleasure in discussing the day of judgement and discuss the stone/jew hadith with great pleasure either. Rather, the day of judgement was a frightful thing, not something to look forward to, as one of the speakers in the documentary makes it look like. In UK, child-beating is as huge taboo (not like the USA, where the southern red-necks would consider it part of daily routine). So, consider the circumstances. Finally, if you live in UK, you work in UK, you follow the rules of UK. Which means that they have a system of parliament, etc. Is it of any benefit talking about its replacement with shariah at THIS time? I mean, for Allah’s sake, we have the world sitting on our necks, and we want to talk about superiority? Where is the hikmah?
3) I still believe the name of your entry was in bad taste. I am surprised, but I have to say that jinnzaman was quite fair in his assessment. I must say I have gained a big notch of respect for you akhi. I do suggest that MR, please change your entry name for the sake of unity of Muslims against the non-Muslims, REGARDLESS of how much we disagree amongst each other.
I would urge you all to listen to Yasir’s video. I talked to him as well, and the message was clear… Muslims are Muslims. We can fight and quibble in our house of Islam. But, when someone from outside attacks it, and if we continue to fight each other, THEY will finish off the easy ones (the “Wahhabis”) first, and then they will clean up with the remaining. Well, perhaps they’ll leave the pro-regressives for some multi-culture flavor
So, don’t let this plot of divide and role (old, old British technique) play out as they wish to script it.
amadsden.blogspot.com Musings of a Muslim Mind
Just a note.
I wonder why they (“Call to Islam” third article) jump to attack “other” Muslims. Calling them Oncle Toms. Is there a competition between mosques on who gets the biggest subsidy from the government?
And I think it would help if the Imams on programme come out and admit their faults. Where in Islam says that we should call the Jews “Pigs” or any groups? Jews or not, they are all Allah’s creations, and for that we should respect them.
It is very clear to see there is anger some of Imams on the programme, whether it is pointed to the society or something else. They should not bring it to mosque.
I’ve added a new video response from Dr Bilal Philips above.
dawud,
Are you a soofe goofe or what? What’s your problem with Madeena Uni.
I agree with another poster on this board who pointed out that some of the things they speak about aren’t really helpful and don’t improve ones life spiritually; not to mention the fact that they aren’t very uplifting to even hear. I don’t know whats up with “Ulemah” love affair with telling women how much they suck and lacking or genetically inferior, which is why men are better than them. It seems like the highlight of some of thier days is to speak about it. It’s not if they care (which they dont) about what women might feel hearing this over and over again and what it does to thier self esteem or what little left they have after attending a masjid, but they certainly don’t think women are in the basement or backroom with bright wonderful smiles on their faces. Serious, whats the point of saying this over and over again? Who gets off on making things point and how does if improve the iman of either sex?
—-
I was watching this interview and when I saw this brother speak it made me think a lot bout the adab of some of these brothers in the video. I think its on point in so many ways and gives a hint to why so many brothers come back with a outright grim disposition of the world and the way they practice the deen. So here is a translation of the video.
Following are excerpts from an interview with Bahraini intellectual Dhiyaa Al-Musawi, which aired on Abu Dhabi TV on December 29, 2006.
Dhiyaa Al-Musawi: I do not believe in gallows of ideology. Our problem in the Arab world is that we have many gallows of ideology and of accusations of social betrayal, on which we try to hang an intellectual, a thinker, or a poet every day, just like in the case of Naguib Mahfouz and others. We, I’m sad to say, are against creativity and civilization, and against any language that seeks common ground in society.
[...]
We must have the courage to get rid of the “backward” cholesterol of ideology, accumulating in the arteries of Arab awareness and the Arab mind. We suffer from backwardness. This is not masochism – the kind psychologists talk about – acts of self-flagellation. This is the truth. We have not developed even to the point of admitting defeat. We [have to] admit our cultural defeat. In the past, we had a civilization in Andalusia and in many other places, but today we are regressing – we export violence, we terrorize whole countries, we threaten national security, and many other things.
[...]
We need to reform and to reshape religious thinking, because, in all honesty, the pulpits of our mosques have begun to “booby trap” the people.
Interviewer: In what way?
Dhiyaa Al-Musawi: They booby trap them by generating hatred towards “the other.” We have claimed a monopoly over Paradise, and each of us has recorded it in the land registry in his name.
Interviewer: But the pulpits are under government supervision.
Some of them are under government supervision, but in some Arab countries, although they are under government supervision, the government itself encourages the booby trapping. This problem has political reasons, but who pays the price? The country, society, civil society, and the young man, who is being told that the black-eyed virgins await him at the gates of Paradise, and that all he has to do is kill himself, to slaughter himself. He might blow up his family and children to get the virgins of Paradise. This is the language and culture of death. We were not born into this world in order to die this way. The beauty of Man lies in his living for the sake of his homeland, not in dying while booby trapping others.
[...]
In the Arab world, we have religious clerics who are beacons [of knowledge], but I think the problem is that we are constantly intimidating the public. We talk only about Hell, and not about Paradise at all. The Koran is balanced. It talks about the fire of Hell and the fruits of Paradise, but we constantly preach about the horrors of Judgment Day, saying that a bald Satan, or a bald serpent, would visit them in the grave. It is constant terror. It is always a dark picture. Why? That is the problem. Unfortunately, some young men – out of a wrong interpretation of religion… The moment he becomes religious, he ceases to smile and to greet others. He accuses some people of heresy and others of sin. He begins all that discourse. He hates music, and refuses to dress neatly. His mind is abducted into the dungeons of ideology, I’m sad to say.
Interviewer: Let me ask you a question. If a Shiite, or even a Sunni, becomes a religious cleric, yet he listens to music, can the Arab public possibly accept him?
Dhiyaa Al-Musawi: In my view, the Arab disposition suffers from many problems. We have destroyed many things, including the beauty of the general disposition. Music is a beautiful thing…
Interviewer: Do you listen to music?
Dhiyaa Al-Musawi: Yes, I listen to music. I listen to classical music, and I think Beethoven’s symphonies are very beautiful. They are among the masterpieces of human art. I believe that music develops the spirit of Man and humbles him. What is wrong with that?
[...]
Some of us say: “May Allah curse the Jews and the Christians, the offspring of apes and pigs.” Is this the language of progress? Is this the language of enlightenment and tolerance? If you had been born in Rome, you would have been Christian, if you had been born in Tehran, you would have been Shiite, and if you had been born in Saudi Arabia, you would have been Sunni, and so on. How wonderful it would be if all these people could gather in love around the table of humanity.
[...]
Nations that read more are the nations that are most respected, like the Western nations, where people read… When you travel to Switzerland, everywhere you go – on the bus or wherever – you see people reading books. Do you see such sights in the Arab world?
[...]
The problem of the Arab youth is that they do not read. As Gustave le Bon wrote in The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind, the Arab youth sometimes smile while they are taken to the slaughterhouse. Why? Because they lack awareness. We suffer from illiteracy. Today, the Arab world has, according to a U.N. report, close to 70 million illiterate adults – in other words, 70 million people whom you can booby trap, against their country and society, because they do not read.
wow, shams, you earn respect and avoid ‘ghiba’, we should definitely treat you with the respect you show others.
Any arguments you make in defense of people who have openly slandered muslims and non-muslims alike are well-defended when you say things like ’sufe goofee’…
by the way, I spent time at Madinah University, have friends amongst students and teachers there, and made a comment more particularly about some of the students who’ve gone through there. When I spoke with some of the teachers, they confessed to me that they themselves were terrified of some of the students, particularly from gang or ghetto backgrounds from the UK, who “passed through our school, learning nothing in four years of usool-ul-fiqh or respect for other opinions, but leaving just as they came in.” [What they said to me]
Shams, you exemplify that poor quality. Are you a graduate of ‘hard knocks’ UK street schools or of Madinah U?
From 34: ‘If you had been born in Rome, you would have been Christian, if you had been born in Tehran, you would have been Shiite, and if you had been born in Saudi Arabia, you would have been Sunni, and so on. How wonderful it would be if all these people could gather in love around the table of humanity’.
I think this says it all and is 100% accurate. It has 2 implications for me:
1. I cannot accept any religion as the truth.
2. Even if you don’t accept 1. it seems to me that everyone should treat a person’s choice of religion only as a sign of their parenthood. Hence tolerance makes sense.
‘
There is one thing that irritates me beyond all others and that is the assertion, either explicit or implied that religion is the root of all evil on earth and without it we would live in a utopian paradise. And that if we were “tolerant” of any absurd belief system we would all get along.
To believe this one must have been dangerously uncurious throughout the entire 20th century and be naive.
To begin with the 150 million or so violent war time deaths in the last 150 years have been due entirely to secular ideologies, nationalism and racial superiority and the politics of greed over resources, territory or influence, not due to religion as all.
WW2 60 million
WW1 30 million
Japanese in Manchuria 13 million
Stalin 12 million
British in Kenya 5 million to 10
Belgians in the congo 5 million (Belgian historians) 20 million independent historians
are the ones that come quickly to mind, in none of these conflicts did religion feature.
I see no need to be tolerant of a devil worshipers beliefs, or a white supremacist or even a follower of rugby league. But it is not my intolerance of them that leads to violence but other elemental issues.
Just because I am intolerant of those imbeciles who view aussie rules as a sport, does not mean I will make war on them.
As religious conflicts go they tend to produce only small numbers of highly spectacular deaths, because they are not funded or authored by nation states that are the only institutions in the worlds that can manage slaughter on an industrial scale
hc made one of the most profound statements that any intellectually mature person can every make. Ask yourself these questions, and be honest.
1. What are the chances of a person changing religion?
2. Do people embedded in a religious society avidly defend their faith?
3. What can be concluded from the above two answers?
4. Are their smart people in all faiths?
5. Is there a chance of religious script being influenced by man to divert readers towards particular biases?
My opinionated answers:
1. 0.0001% means I’m pretty well born into my religion.
2. Absolutely. They were divinely chosen to be born in the perfect religion. How blessed.
3. When people defend their faith, they are actually defending their family, community and social structure (NOT GOD). They are to be considered treasonous should they not defend their allotted faith to the death.
4. Geniuses in every religion and sect. Yet they also stuck to their religion all of their lives too. One religion doesn’t seem to be more “blessed” than another in any measurable fasion for any considerable length of time. If it was to the contrary then all the smart people would migrate towards that particular religion. But, as I said, they are content with their native beliefs.
5. Yes. God wants us to come closer to Him. Yet, for some reason, he allows men to blow us off of that course. Only through genuine prayer (communication with God) and fasting (seperation from this world) can we sort through the genuinely divine messages and the influences of man.
Dhiyaa Al-Musawi’s words have great depth.
Good points, Mr Tumnus.
Please don’t put al-Maghrib alongside of TROID and Spubs…
There is a HUGE difference…inshaAllah
jazakAllah khair…
Just ignore Dawud, he has some deep, personal ax to grind, and he is grinding it on every forum he has an opportunity. If we ignore him, he’ll get over it and find another cause.
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