I’m not saying what you think I’m saying. If you look at what I said I actually said that I think women need to be taught from a younger age or there is only a small likelihood of them actually being able to study as long as they need to. Once you are married it is unlikely you are going to put off having kids for 6 years (the length of the courses here).

The problem then exists though of how are women going to go study when they are younger? Being married gives you the mahram relationship you need to be able to go overseas. Before that your only option is a brother or a father. And they are unlikely to be able to give up work and their life to go overseas for that length of time.
Even if you were to follow an opinion that you can go without a mahram there are not too many Muslim parents who will be sending their daughters off overseas for 4-6 years by themselves.

I was aware of that. However, let’s say you’re considering a school outside of the KSA. If, for example, someone wanted to attend the International Islamic University Malaysia, they’re going to be charged for tuition, housing, etc.

The main problem was actually being married and having kids – who are you going to leave your kids with when you go to study?

But this problem will exist for both men and women under these circumstances, married with or without children. It certainly doesn’t apply just to women. Several years ago, my wife wanted me to go off to get a PhD. That would have been nice, but I also knew how disruptive it would have been for our lives.

The woman you mentioned I would hazard a guess probably didn’t have kids…

Yes, I suspect that’s the case; I suspect that she’s like most other Western university students: in her late teens or early 20s, never been married, with no children. That’s why we all went to college early in our lives, to get that necessity out of the way prior to marriage. It sounds to me like now you’re saying, “We need more female scholars and that they should be able to go off for their studies after they’re married and have kids.” To which I say, “Good luck,” but with little sympathy. Welcome to the real world.

From a practical point of view I can see why women in the West though are unable to go through with finishing their studies and studying properly because of the reasons I listed above.

If we want to train female scholars then I think practically it needs to be done from a much younger age. Once a woman is married and has kids, she will find it extremely difficult to study full-time and get to the same level that men are able to much more easily. So her basic knowledge I feel should be gotten before marriage.

Amir also make a good point. A high number of people from the West drop out in their first year when coming here. People come with stars in their eyes wanting to seek knowledge but when the reality hits them – culture shock / lifestyle / living conditions etc. It’s not easy. Out of all the actual Aussie converts who have come here not a single one has graduated. Most dropped out in their first or second year.

The second point about employment is another big one. We want people to go learn and become scholars but then we get no benefit from it as people have families to support. If they are working 5-6 days a week where is the time left for teaching or studying? Many graduates for that reason have ended up just working normal jobs because their knowledge is not valued and the community is not going to support them. So whilst we lament the lack of knowledge in our community we also are generally not prepared to use money to support those with knowledge.

I believe Muslims are very cheap when it comes to knowledge. People will complain about paying $100 for a course but will not blink an eye buying a $5000 plasma TV.

Being the daughter of an Imam I really saw how undervalued people of knowledge are. Don’t you think it is sad that when you have an Imam for one of the richest communities in the Muslims that his family used to get a lot of things from the salvation army and church groups? That he never bought new clothes or shoes for himself for over 10 years and used to get them second hand? My mum used to say to my dad to go become a taxi driver because at least it paid to support his family.

I think a distinction has to be made between what ‘Salafis’ are like in the West and what they are like in Saudi. I’ve hardly ever heard the type of discussion that goes on in Australia over here. By this I mean the usual debates which are matters of fiqh i.e. where do you place your hands in prayer, do you shake your finger in tashahud and so on.. I’ve heard of them only in a discussion in an actual fiqhi and knowledge based context . I’ve never seen people condemning others for not ‘following the Quran and Sunnah’ because they follow a different opinion.

I’ll probably get bashed for this but I really don’t believe the avg Salafi in the West has much of a clue when it comes to discussions of fiqh or knowledge. And that is why I think more ‘traditional’ Muslims are better in that sense because at least they admit to not having a clue and rely on their shaykh in getting rulings.

I also don’t think you can make an actual definition of a Salafi as there are many different types in many different places. The Salafis in Saudi are nothing like the Salafis in Australia. There are Salafis who follow madhabs and others who advocate that following a madhab is akin to putting the words of the Imam before the Qur’an and Sunnah.

I think the one thing that you will *generally* find consistent in the difference between traditionals and Salafis is probably in a few matters of aqeedah.

I tend to use it loosely, but perhaps if may hazard a guess

those of the ahle Sunnah wa al jamaah who take their deen/rulings from the Quran and the authentic AHadeeth,

as opposed to those who take the deen/rulings without necessarily support from authentic AHadeeth. For them following a faqih of a particular madhab is enough.

a sane voice is a him

1. Most people who go to study abroad from Australia either fail miserably or give up which suggests that there is either something lacking in the selection process or perhaps something lacking in the education/environment;

2. Of those that finish, a large percentage of them return to Australia to join the ranks of the unemployed and the unemployable. The smart ones, it seems, go and acquire another qualification because a degree in an Islamic field isn’t going to get you a job in Australia and there are no institutions willing or able to pay you.

Fatima is correct to write that Muslims in the west who want scholars should be expected to pay for them (i.e. their training, and their wages).

I am not saying that what the saudis are doing is bad, rather that it could be improved further to make it accessible for more students

Months ago, I came across a blog written in part by a non-Muslim woman who’s studying Arabic, Fiqh, etc., in the KSA. So how “impossible” can it be for Muslimah converts to study in Muslim countries?

I suspect issues of money for tuition and language are more at fault than anything else.