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	<title>Comments on: Ameer Ali celebrates the &#8216;collapse&#8217; of traditional religious authority</title>
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	<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/</link>
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		<title>By: James (San Deigo)</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-24564</link>
		<dc:creator>James (San Deigo)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 23:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/#comment-24564</guid>
		<description>Orthodoxy is under assault that much is true. But is this a good or bad thing?  What is Orthodoxy?  From the Greek it is “correct thinking.”   Where did this idea come from?  In Western Europe it came from the need of the Roman emperors to lay down some sort of unity to their new Christian faith.  Beginning with Constantine and ending- well ending never, the Hierarchical church tried to impose a clear faith on its laity.   Now in the Orthodox churches this is very much a top down affair.  

Islam never had a figure quite like the Pope.  The Prophet (peace be unto him) was the only man that all Muslims ever agreed to as the final authority on religious matters. He occupies that very special niche unto this day.  The Caliphs tried to impose religious hegemony but that failed.  However a type of Orthodoxy was created by Islam, it was much more collegial than the Christian analog but with definite power centers, with definite leaders and with definite followers.  

For most of history Christian Orthodoxy and Islamic Orthodoxy looked very similar. There was a vast, illiterate and rural faithful being lead by small, literate and urban elite.  The elite controlled the faith because only they understood the writings of the sacred text, only they could read the commentary, only they had the leisure to deeply delve into the mysteries of the faith. So while it may be true that Islam has at its core has an individualist approach to the faith, very few were able to realize this before the 20th and 21st centuries.	

Looking at this new literacy we look for parallels, the question being, has this happened before?  The Christian analog of Reformation then “Enlightenment” is germane.  An explosion of literacy and cheep books shattered Christian Orthodoxy.  Today we have an explosion of literacy and the Internet.  Already we have people who have the leisure and the academic chops to study the sources directly.  They bring new modern tools this undertaking.  Some of these tools are that of literary and linguistic analysis.  This is not the challenge of Marxism or Socialism or the challenge of Baathism this is something only developed in the past 30 to 40 years. This challenge is radical, it gets to the roots of the text, and it gets to the words them selves. This challenge will offer new interpretations of old formula.  These tools and new Archaeological finds have decimated Christian Orthodoxy, what will happen to Islamic Orthodoxy? While history is pro log it does not necessarily repeat itself.  Islam is confronting with and adapting to modernity, just as Christianity is confronting and adapting to modernity. 

By reacquainting Western Europe with ancient Greek knowledge, by gifting those blighted savages with learning and logic Islam did sew the seeds that became Renaissance, Reformation and finally the Enlightenment.  And it is the children of the Enlightenment who have come to challenge Ancien Régime of the mullahs the grand muftis in matters great and small.  They have seen the corrupted state Islam of the so-called secularists in Syria and Egypt, a combination of the worst aspects of European Authoritarianism and Islamic Puritanism, and they have recoiled.  Maybe “true” Islam should not be tarred with the brush of the base fools who have signed on for this corrupting exercise of collaborating with the Kleptocratic secular elites.  Maybe “true” Islam wants nothing to do with the club wielding yahoos beating up women for showing a wisp of hair under their hijabs.  But these guys are getting their marching orders (clubbing orders?) from someone who went to all the right madrassas and is reading all the right texts and conferring with all the right Imams who are referencing all the right commentaries written by all those very old and dead men of the 12th century.  This is all very “correct,” all very Orthodox, but profoundly wrong.   

It is said that Islam is a moderate religion a “religion of peace” maybe this is the start of a new movement a “moderate” place between the ethical bankruptcy of Modernity and the crushing conformity of the extreme Salafists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Orthodoxy is under assault that much is true. But is this a good or bad thing?  What is Orthodoxy?  From the Greek it is “correct thinking.”   Where did this idea come from?  In Western Europe it came from the need of the Roman emperors to lay down some sort of unity to their new Christian faith.  Beginning with Constantine and ending- well ending never, the Hierarchical church tried to impose a clear faith on its laity.   Now in the Orthodox churches this is very much a top down affair.  </p>
<p>Islam never had a figure quite like the Pope.  The Prophet (peace be unto him) was the only man that all Muslims ever agreed to as the final authority on religious matters. He occupies that very special niche unto this day.  The Caliphs tried to impose religious hegemony but that failed.  However a type of Orthodoxy was created by Islam, it was much more collegial than the Christian analog but with definite power centers, with definite leaders and with definite followers.  </p>
<p>For most of history Christian Orthodoxy and Islamic Orthodoxy looked very similar. There was a vast, illiterate and rural faithful being lead by small, literate and urban elite.  The elite controlled the faith because only they understood the writings of the sacred text, only they could read the commentary, only they had the leisure to deeply delve into the mysteries of the faith. So while it may be true that Islam has at its core has an individualist approach to the faith, very few were able to realize this before the 20th and 21st centuries.	</p>
<p>Looking at this new literacy we look for parallels, the question being, has this happened before?  The Christian analog of Reformation then “Enlightenment” is germane.  An explosion of literacy and cheep books shattered Christian Orthodoxy.  Today we have an explosion of literacy and the Internet.  Already we have people who have the leisure and the academic chops to study the sources directly.  They bring new modern tools this undertaking.  Some of these tools are that of literary and linguistic analysis.  This is not the challenge of Marxism or Socialism or the challenge of Baathism this is something only developed in the past 30 to 40 years. This challenge is radical, it gets to the roots of the text, and it gets to the words them selves. This challenge will offer new interpretations of old formula.  These tools and new Archaeological finds have decimated Christian Orthodoxy, what will happen to Islamic Orthodoxy? While history is pro log it does not necessarily repeat itself.  Islam is confronting with and adapting to modernity, just as Christianity is confronting and adapting to modernity. </p>
<p>By reacquainting Western Europe with ancient Greek knowledge, by gifting those blighted savages with learning and logic Islam did sew the seeds that became Renaissance, Reformation and finally the Enlightenment.  And it is the children of the Enlightenment who have come to challenge Ancien Régime of the mullahs the grand muftis in matters great and small.  They have seen the corrupted state Islam of the so-called secularists in Syria and Egypt, a combination of the worst aspects of European Authoritarianism and Islamic Puritanism, and they have recoiled.  Maybe “true” Islam should not be tarred with the brush of the base fools who have signed on for this corrupting exercise of collaborating with the Kleptocratic secular elites.  Maybe “true” Islam wants nothing to do with the club wielding yahoos beating up women for showing a wisp of hair under their hijabs.  But these guys are getting their marching orders (clubbing orders?) from someone who went to all the right madrassas and is reading all the right texts and conferring with all the right Imams who are referencing all the right commentaries written by all those very old and dead men of the 12th century.  This is all very “correct,” all very Orthodox, but profoundly wrong.   </p>
<p>It is said that Islam is a moderate religion a “religion of peace” maybe this is the start of a new movement a “moderate” place between the ethical bankruptcy of Modernity and the crushing conformity of the extreme Salafists.</p>
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		<title>By: al-mishmishi</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-24014</link>
		<dc:creator>al-mishmishi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 13:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/#comment-24014</guid>
		<description>What are you agreeing with exactly?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What are you agreeing with exactly?</p>
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		<title>By: Jamila</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-23912</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamila</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 22:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/#comment-23912</guid>
		<description>I agree with Irfan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Irfan.</p>
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		<title>By: Omar</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-23838</link>
		<dc:creator>Omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 10:03:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/#comment-23838</guid>
		<description>&#039;...Any intellectual pursuit that threatened this state-mullah alliance was aggressively curtailed&#039;

Errr...mate, if there is a state-mullah alliance in Syria, than what was Hama all about?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;&#8230;Any intellectual pursuit that threatened this state-mullah alliance was aggressively curtailed&#8217;</p>
<p>Errr&#8230;mate, if there is a state-mullah alliance in Syria, than what was Hama all about?</p>
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		<title>By: Yusuf Smith</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-23833</link>
		<dc:creator>Yusuf Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 09:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/#comment-23833</guid>
		<description>As-Salaamu &#039;alaikum,

Anyone who can come out with a statement like:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Any intellectual pursuit that threatened this state-mullah alliance was aggressively curtailed. In Egypt, in Pakistan, in Syria, and in many other Muslim countries Muslim intellectuals who challenged populist Islam faced condemnation not only by the religious hardliners but also by the secular elite that governed these countries&lt;/blockquote&gt;

really does not deserve to have his article read any further.  There certainly was no &quot;state-mullah&quot; alliance in Syria; while the scholars were allowed to teach certain things and to lead prayers, we all know what happened when Muslims demanded that the country be ruled by them according to their principles rather than by a minority according to principles borrowed from eastern Europe.  People I have spoken to with connections to Sufis in Syria told me a few years ago that they could not hold their gatherings openly in Damascus, and had to meet at different houses week to week.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As-Salaamu &#8216;alaikum,</p>
<p>Anyone who can come out with a statement like:</p>
<blockquote><p>Any intellectual pursuit that threatened this state-mullah alliance was aggressively curtailed. In Egypt, in Pakistan, in Syria, and in many other Muslim countries Muslim intellectuals who challenged populist Islam faced condemnation not only by the religious hardliners but also by the secular elite that governed these countries</p></blockquote>
<p>really does not deserve to have his article read any further.  There certainly was no &#8220;state-mullah&#8221; alliance in Syria; while the scholars were allowed to teach certain things and to lead prayers, we all know what happened when Muslims demanded that the country be ruled by them according to their principles rather than by a minority according to principles borrowed from eastern Europe.  People I have spoken to with connections to Sufis in Syria told me a few years ago that they could not hold their gatherings openly in Damascus, and had to meet at different houses week to week.</p>
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		<title>By: Baybers</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-23707</link>
		<dc:creator>Baybers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 12:16:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/#comment-23707</guid>
		<description>Yes, Sarah that it about right, Muslim scholars are free to &quot;pontificate&quot; on subjects as diverse as sexuality, finance, politics, because that is what our deen has given us insight into. If Muslim leaders cannot teach from religious doctrine about these subjects, then why have a religion? No one can say that they don&#039;t do so without wider public scrutiny. 

We are not stopping these people from speaking we are just interrogating their assertions and applying the same scrutiny that they seek to apply to classical (real) Islamic scholarship. I agree that intellectuals should be free to speak, but equally we should be free to challenge and where necessary attack those views.

Here we are not afraid of the power of ideas, We welcome a contest of them. 

heresy: belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious  doctrine

Their beliefs are heretical, and I am sure that they would be happy to say so. Many of these people wear their heresy as a badge of honor.

Thank you for your compliment about this website, you give it too much  credit</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Sarah that it about right, Muslim scholars are free to &#8220;pontificate&#8221; on subjects as diverse as sexuality, finance, politics, because that is what our deen has given us insight into. If Muslim leaders cannot teach from religious doctrine about these subjects, then why have a religion? No one can say that they don&#8217;t do so without wider public scrutiny. </p>
<p>We are not stopping these people from speaking we are just interrogating their assertions and applying the same scrutiny that they seek to apply to classical (real) Islamic scholarship. I agree that intellectuals should be free to speak, but equally we should be free to challenge and where necessary attack those views.</p>
<p>Here we are not afraid of the power of ideas, We welcome a contest of them. </p>
<p>heresy: belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious  doctrine</p>
<p>Their beliefs are heretical, and I am sure that they would be happy to say so. Many of these people wear their heresy as a badge of honor.</p>
<p>Thank you for your compliment about this website, you give it too much  credit</p>
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		<title>By: sarah</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-23698</link>
		<dc:creator>sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 09:37:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/#comment-23698</guid>
		<description>ay so imams are free to pontificate on matters that are outside their direct expertise- daily life, politics, law, finance, economics, health, sexuality, psychoanalysis, mental illness, the environment, government, law, social policy and all matters of life, death, public and private concern (without expertise in the area) that is ok- but when a reverse occurs- anyone not strictly schooled in the classical tradition dares to step in their priveleged domain then all hell breaks loose! 

when religious regulations seek to regulate matters outside the personal and private domain of the soul- a reciprocal responsibility and freedom to critique this power arises- in fact it is necessary.

to undermine and dismiss the role of the intellectual in this highly contested domain of knowledge and power is really wrong.  if religion involves the getting of wisdom-  to learn, undertand, think, reason than ideas should not be treated with fear, those who disagree with us should be called &quot;munafiq&quot;, there are no &quot;heresies&quot; only disagreements. this questioning should not be  antithetical to faith. 

ps- don&#039;t dismiss the power of ideas- even if it does not come with the dress and pomp of authority and institutions. did not humanity&#039;s great revelations come from the depth of deserts, unlettered prophets and artistic inspirations??  

pps- there&#039;s some fabulous stuff on the internet! (this site included)- it is amazing tool if used correctly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ay so imams are free to pontificate on matters that are outside their direct expertise- daily life, politics, law, finance, economics, health, sexuality, psychoanalysis, mental illness, the environment, government, law, social policy and all matters of life, death, public and private concern (without expertise in the area) that is ok- but when a reverse occurs- anyone not strictly schooled in the classical tradition dares to step in their priveleged domain then all hell breaks loose! </p>
<p>when religious regulations seek to regulate matters outside the personal and private domain of the soul- a reciprocal responsibility and freedom to critique this power arises- in fact it is necessary.</p>
<p>to undermine and dismiss the role of the intellectual in this highly contested domain of knowledge and power is really wrong.  if religion involves the getting of wisdom-  to learn, undertand, think, reason than ideas should not be treated with fear, those who disagree with us should be called &#8220;munafiq&#8221;, there are no &#8220;heresies&#8221; only disagreements. this questioning should not be  antithetical to faith. </p>
<p>ps- don&#8217;t dismiss the power of ideas- even if it does not come with the dress and pomp of authority and institutions. did not humanity&#8217;s great revelations come from the depth of deserts, unlettered prophets and artistic inspirations??  </p>
<p>pps- there&#8217;s some fabulous stuff on the internet! (this site included)- it is amazing tool if used correctly.</p>
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		<title>By: Omar</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-23692</link>
		<dc:creator>Omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 08:56:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/#comment-23692</guid>
		<description>Phil, generally speaking, you&#039;re right: the printing press did have huge social implications, but don&#039;t overdo it.  Even Luther&#039;s translation only ever achieved the equivalent of 1 in 3,000 per capita circulation.  What really makes a difference is: a) paper and b) mass literacy.

Secondly, the Ottoman Empire had other, and more important reasons for banning the printing press.  As they correctly foresaw, printing would be a very good way of mobilising anti-Ottoman forces within the Empire- I mean nationalism.  And the rest, is history...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil, generally speaking, you&#8217;re right: the printing press did have huge social implications, but don&#8217;t overdo it.  Even Luther&#8217;s translation only ever achieved the equivalent of 1 in 3,000 per capita circulation.  What really makes a difference is: a) paper and b) mass literacy.</p>
<p>Secondly, the Ottoman Empire had other, and more important reasons for banning the printing press.  As they correctly foresaw, printing would be a very good way of mobilising anti-Ottoman forces within the Empire- I mean nationalism.  And the rest, is history&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: anonymuslim</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-23581</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymuslim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 15:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/#comment-23581</guid>
		<description>Dr. Ameer Ali also acknowledged his more limited knowledge of Islam as compared to the scholars in the community and that he is not one to be approached for religious verdicts or explanations in contrast to the respected Imams. Thus it was made evident that his role in the community as advocate for the development of the Muslim community and any such related matters of political nature was more warranted.


&lt;a href=&quot;http://ecuis.wordpress.com/2006/11/06/muslim-students-association-statement-regarding-dr-ameer-ali/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;source&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Ameer Ali also acknowledged his more limited knowledge of Islam as compared to the scholars in the community and that he is not one to be approached for religious verdicts or explanations in contrast to the respected Imams. Thus it was made evident that his role in the community as advocate for the development of the Muslim community and any such related matters of political nature was more warranted.</p>
<p><a href="http://ecuis.wordpress.com/2006/11/06/muslim-students-association-statement-regarding-dr-ameer-ali/" rel="nofollow">source</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mantra</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-23575</link>
		<dc:creator>Mantra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 14:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2007/04/30/ameer-ali-celebrates-the-collapse-of-religious-authority/#comment-23575</guid>
		<description>So would these individuals be tolerated back in Muslim majority countries? 

&quot;From an inhospitable environment of political tyranny and ideological oppression Muslim scholars migrated to find refuge in the West, where the mind enjoys more freedom to think, debate and express.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So would these individuals be tolerated back in Muslim majority countries? </p>
<p>&#8220;From an inhospitable environment of political tyranny and ideological oppression Muslim scholars migrated to find refuge in the West, where the mind enjoys more freedom to think, debate and express.&#8221;</p>
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