I find that the sneering insults completely negates the high-minded allah-talk. I wouldn’t trust the author to lie stright in bed. If you have an argument, state it. Don’t play to your own supporters.
I always though he was raised as a Christian by his mother, in Islam it is believed all children are born as Muslim, does that mean we can refer to all non-Muslims as apostates? No.
Regardless, I doubt an Obama Presidency would be as problematic as the article states. Though Iran would try and milk it (Their clients will also).
I’m sure Robert Spencer would be greatly interested in lots of that Traditional Islamism site. As he keeps saying, it’s hard to understand why he’s accused of Islamophobia when he merely reiterates what’s being said by Islamists themselves:
“in Islam it is believed all children are born as Muslim”
They are born in a state of fitrah, which is NOT the same thing.
This perfectly illustrates the ignorance that masquerades as knowledge when we no longer utilise a reliable source to transmit our religious knowledge beyond the gossip and rumour of the masajid. As much as they might rail against such claims, it is the insidious poison of university Islamic studies that promotes this stuff, it is just a high brow version for those with a politically liberal bent of wahhabism. Ignorance from beginning to end.
If Obama wasn’t a Muslim why do his former colleagues at the Indonesian CHRISTIAN school remember him as being a Muslim? Why do his papers at the CHRISTIAN school list him as being a Muslim? Why did he pray at Eid prayer in Indonesia?
He was once upon a time a Muslim but like many people he just drifted away from it. Is he an apostate? Technically he is because he’s changed his religion and is now a Christian.
But anyway - both Christianity (some sects) and Judaism have ‘coming of age’ ceremonies after which the child is deemed old enough to accept/reject their religion. Before then they were just ‘provisional’ members. Does Islam have an equivalent?
Children born to Muslim parents are counted as Muslim, even if say it was a non-practising Muslim mother and a non-Muslim father.
By the way, I don’t want anyone to think that I consider myself to be a person “of remembrance”, it is just a reminder that we need to seek answers from qualified sources [ie: someone with ijaza and following a recognised madhab] and not just someone who has read a bit of Buhkari or has a Phd in Islamic “studies”.
Yep, AR, I was thinking that the article was twaddle but now I see that it will be a serious problem - how CAN Muslim police guard him on State visits? Is Iran stupid enough to call for his death (apparently not, so far)?
“So are you saying Obama is an apostate and if so, how should he be executed?”
From what I have posted, I would have thought a more resonable conclusion on your part would be that I would reasonably suggest
“if you know not, ask the people of remembrance”.
But being an obvious religious conservative, I must automatically be howling for blood and dismemberment without knowing sufficient facts or having the authority to act upon any base inclination I may or may not have.
Somebody please give me an idea for a suitable punishment countenanced by the Sharia for being a smart alec. Perhaps being forced to read snide posts on the Interweb by the thousands as some kind of aversion therapy?
No, I was thinking more that you’d say “don’t be ridiculous, this is not the 6th Century - no one should be executed for changing their religion. What a primitive and barbaric idea.”
Hadd punishments are established, to deny them is a serious matter, which is why with all of his failings (the lack of ijaza for one I believe) Tariq Ramadan does no such thing. When and how they can or should be applied are different matters entirely.
These issues are confused because of the ready misuse of terminology, from my understanding which is limited, at the time of the Rightly Guided Caliphs [may Allah be pleased with them] there were few executions of murtads, despite the large number of open murtads which indicates that being a murtad in and of itself was not punishable by death.
Another problem faced by many is the lack of understanding for how a basic ruling is turned into something we can act upon. This is a complex field which I do not understand myself but involves a wide range of considerations like the common good, historical circumstances etc. so something which may be praiseworthy in one setting could be completely forbidden and oppressive in another.
AR, all well and good, but there has been 1400 years to get it sorted out and codified, plus a Caliphate with absolute power - yet it’s still as uncertain as ever, and the Taliban can kill schoolgirls, believing that they are doing God’s will. Shouldn’t someone get their act together?
Iran would be stupid to call for his execution, considering he is the only presidential candidate that wishes to sit at a table and talk with their leader.
Personally I think Senator McCain would make a great President.
For the record, I don’t actually like being called “AR”.
The only places where these issues aren’t sorted out are the places where the traditional forms of learning are rejected. Which is the one of the very dangers of wahhabism and the equally misguided liberals.
I may not know these answers, but I don’t need to. All we are required to know is the knowledge of what acts we involve ourselves in or are obligatory upon us. The rulings of marriage for the married for example. This type of knowledge touched on here is only necessary for the fuqaha, may Allah accept their service.
“I may not know these answers, but I don’t need to. ”
But nor can you FIND the answer if you need to find it. There is no consensus on so many things, nor any procedure for arriving at consensus. You’d think that simple, perfect plan would be - well, simple and perfect, wouldn’t ya?
Consensus is not necessary, the four madhaib can function properly without having to agree on every point. Calling consensus a “simple, perfect plan” bespeaks of never having been involved in an organisiation that uses it as a matter of principle.
It also ignores the fact that perfection belongs only to Allah swt, anything that we do will never ever be perfect and it is arrogance to think we could do otherwise.
Are you able to have perfect understanding of a perfect message with your contingent and limitary being?
AFAIK serious difference of opinion does not relate to most issues, this sort of know it all nit picking just displays your ignorance. If you really know so little, a logical thing to do would be to stop advancing opinions until you have sufficient knowledge to base them on.
I cheerfully admit my ignorance, but I don’t think I’m wrong in saying that there are vast differences in interpretation of Islamic laws between Muslim groups. Presumably they all sincerely base their beliefs on scholarly authority.
So how WOULD a Caliphate decide on its laws? What would happen to Muslims in a Caliphate who sincerely believed that a law was contrary to the will of Allah?
Soccer loons. You know the world’s in trouble when a bunch of men cheer on another man for taking off his shirt while standing on a truck carrying kegs of beer.
Actually, perfectly seriuously, I’d be very interested in reading properly-researched studies of the Ottoman Caliphate’s legal system. Fact, not theory. Any suggestions?
There must be a huge amount of source material available for scholars, but have scholars (genuine scholars) been given access?
Dunno. I’d rather see men cheering each other for lifting their shirts whilst standing on a keg of beer than invading other people’s countries, or demanding the beheading of cartoonists, or bombing children, or blowing themselves up in crowded places etc etc etc.
42 comments ↓
http://traditionalislamism.wordpress.com/
I find that the sneering insults completely negates the high-minded allah-talk. I wouldn’t trust the author to lie stright in bed. If you have an argument, state it. Don’t play to your own supporters.
Sorry, I meant to capitalise ‘Allah’.
President Apostate?
Surely not - there’s the concept of ‘age of reason’ in Islam, isn’t there? A child can’t “really” be a Muslim, so a child can’t be an apostate.
I always though he was raised as a Christian by his mother, in Islam it is believed all children are born as Muslim, does that mean we can refer to all non-Muslims as apostates? No.
Regardless, I doubt an Obama Presidency would be as problematic as the article states. Though Iran would try and milk it (Their clients will also).
I’m sure Robert Spencer would be greatly interested in lots of that Traditional Islamism site. As he keeps saying, it’s hard to understand why he’s accused of Islamophobia when he merely reiterates what’s being said by Islamists themselves:
http://traditionalislamism.wor.....ive-jihad/
‘…Islam, Jizya or War…’.
Quite the stark choice, don’t you think?
“in Islam it is believed all children are born as Muslim”
They are born in a state of fitrah, which is NOT the same thing.
This perfectly illustrates the ignorance that masquerades as knowledge when we no longer utilise a reliable source to transmit our religious knowledge beyond the gossip and rumour of the masajid. As much as they might rail against such claims, it is the insidious poison of university Islamic studies that promotes this stuff, it is just a high brow version for those with a politically liberal bent of wahhabism. Ignorance from beginning to end.
If you know not, ask the people of rememberance.
Interesting. So he never was a Muslim, hence the apostasy label cannot really stick.
If Obama wasn’t a Muslim why do his former colleagues at the Indonesian CHRISTIAN school remember him as being a Muslim? Why do his papers at the CHRISTIAN school list him as being a Muslim? Why did he pray at Eid prayer in Indonesia?
He was once upon a time a Muslim but like many people he just drifted away from it. Is he an apostate? Technically he is because he’s changed his religion and is now a Christian.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.co.....tic-o.html
OIAO - when you say “colleages”, you mean ‘playmates’, don’t you? He was still a child when he left the school, wasn’t he?
So, I guess the question is: how should he be executed?
But anyway - both Christianity (some sects) and Judaism have ‘coming of age’ ceremonies after which the child is deemed old enough to accept/reject their religion. Before then they were just ‘provisional’ members. Does Islam have an equivalent?
Children born to Muslim parents are counted as Muslim, even if say it was a non-practising Muslim mother and a non-Muslim father.
By the way, I don’t want anyone to think that I consider myself to be a person “of remembrance”, it is just a reminder that we need to seek answers from qualified sources [ie: someone with ijaza and following a recognised madhab] and not just someone who has read a bit of Buhkari or has a Phd in Islamic “studies”.
So are you saying Obama is an apostate and if so, how should he be executed?
So over Obama.
Yep, AR, I was thinking that the article was twaddle but now I see that it will be a serious problem - how CAN Muslim police guard him on State visits? Is Iran stupid enough to call for his death (apparently not, so far)?
“So are you saying Obama is an apostate and if so, how should he be executed?”
From what I have posted, I would have thought a more resonable conclusion on your part would be that I would reasonably suggest
“if you know not, ask the people of remembrance”.
But being an obvious religious conservative, I must automatically be howling for blood and dismemberment without knowing sufficient facts or having the authority to act upon any base inclination I may or may not have.
Somebody please give me an idea for a suitable punishment countenanced by the Sharia for being a smart alec. Perhaps being forced to read snide posts on the Interweb by the thousands as some kind of aversion therapy?
No, I was thinking more that you’d say “don’t be ridiculous, this is not the 6th Century - no one should be executed for changing their religion. What a primitive and barbaric idea.”
Hadd punishments are established, to deny them is a serious matter, which is why with all of his failings (the lack of ijaza for one I believe) Tariq Ramadan does no such thing. When and how they can or should be applied are different matters entirely.
These issues are confused because of the ready misuse of terminology, from my understanding which is limited, at the time of the Rightly Guided Caliphs [may Allah be pleased with them] there were few executions of murtads, despite the large number of open murtads which indicates that being a murtad in and of itself was not punishable by death.
Another problem faced by many is the lack of understanding for how a basic ruling is turned into something we can act upon. This is a complex field which I do not understand myself but involves a wide range of considerations like the common good, historical circumstances etc. so something which may be praiseworthy in one setting could be completely forbidden and oppressive in another.
Quran selling for $150k on ebay!
AR, all well and good, but there has been 1400 years to get it sorted out and codified, plus a Caliphate with absolute power - yet it’s still as uncertain as ever, and the Taliban can kill schoolgirls, believing that they are doing God’s will. Shouldn’t someone get their act together?
Iran would be stupid to call for his execution, considering he is the only presidential candidate that wishes to sit at a table and talk with their leader.
Personally I think Senator McCain would make a great President.
For the record, I don’t actually like being called “AR”.
The only places where these issues aren’t sorted out are the places where the traditional forms of learning are rejected. Which is the one of the very dangers of wahhabism and the equally misguided liberals.
I may not know these answers, but I don’t need to. All we are required to know is the knowledge of what acts we involve ourselves in or are obligatory upon us. The rulings of marriage for the married for example. This type of knowledge touched on here is only necessary for the fuqaha, may Allah accept their service.
“I may not know these answers, but I don’t need to. ”
But nor can you FIND the answer if you need to find it. There is no consensus on so many things, nor any procedure for arriving at consensus. You’d think that simple, perfect plan would be - well, simple and perfect, wouldn’t ya?
Consensus is not necessary, the four madhaib can function properly without having to agree on every point. Calling consensus a “simple, perfect plan” bespeaks of never having been involved in an organisiation that uses it as a matter of principle.
It also ignores the fact that perfection belongs only to Allah swt, anything that we do will never ever be perfect and it is arrogance to think we could do otherwise.
Well, presumably Allah communicated it perfectly, so it ought to be crystal-clear. Which it isn’t at all, is it?
And it does beg the question of how a legal system could operate in a Calipjhate if the laws change depending on which scholar you ask.
Are you able to have perfect understanding of a perfect message with your contingent and limitary being?
AFAIK serious difference of opinion does not relate to most issues, this sort of know it all nit picking just displays your ignorance. If you really know so little, a logical thing to do would be to stop advancing opinions until you have sufficient knowledge to base them on.
I cheerfully admit my ignorance, but I don’t think I’m wrong in saying that there are vast differences in interpretation of Islamic laws between Muslim groups. Presumably they all sincerely base their beliefs on scholarly authority.
So how WOULD a Caliphate decide on its laws? What would happen to Muslims in a Caliphate who sincerely believed that a law was contrary to the will of Allah?
Soccer loons. You know the world’s in trouble when a bunch of men cheer on another man for taking off his shirt while standing on a truck carrying kegs of beer.
The open thread is a really good idea…keep it up chaps.
saucy minx
Actually, perfectly seriuously, I’d be very interested in reading properly-researched studies of the Ottoman Caliphate’s legal system. Fact, not theory. Any suggestions?
There must be a huge amount of source material available for scholars, but have scholars (genuine scholars) been given access?
Dunno. I’d rather see men cheering each other for lifting their shirts whilst standing on a keg of beer than invading other people’s countries, or demanding the beheading of cartoonists, or bombing children, or blowing themselves up in crowded places etc etc etc.
Not really on a par with each other, G-man.
antish @ 34 did you mean me?
Sorry, Hon, but no.
(I keep deleting my cookies, forgetting that this puts me back on moderation here - my posts show up late.)
Well I’m glad we cleared that up.
Antish sometimes talks to himself.
I talk to myself too,well mutter to myself but I don’t have cats.
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