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	<title>Comments on: French judge annuls Muslim marriage over virginity lie</title>
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	<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/</link>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-104960</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 04:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/#comment-104960</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Leaving aside the substance of the dispute, if marriage is viewed (correctly) as simply a contract between individuals then what is so outrageous or disagreeable about such a contract being dissolved when one party has misrepresented themselves?&lt;/i&gt;

Nothing. However we can&#039;t really leave aside the substance. Fair enough it&#039;s a contract and legally everything was handled justly. That doesn&#039;t make this hang up on purity any less loathsome to enlightened people in the 21st century. 

The outrage was at the stupidity of the man in thinking this was a big deal. It is a huge bummer that people feel the need to force people not to be stupid and often cry out that there &quot;outta be a law&quot; every time something lame like this happens but that doesn&#039;t take away from the fact that this was a lame thing to do. It shows that the Man is an unenlightened and ungentlemanly clot without a shred of compassion.

Sarkozy is a populist tool for suggesting a change of the law. Why lumber her with this man for life? Sure the instinct to coerce, to ban is awful but I find the sentiment behind it to be spot on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Leaving aside the substance of the dispute, if marriage is viewed (correctly) as simply a contract between individuals then what is so outrageous or disagreeable about such a contract being dissolved when one party has misrepresented themselves?</i></p>
<p>Nothing. However we can&#8217;t really leave aside the substance. Fair enough it&#8217;s a contract and legally everything was handled justly. That doesn&#8217;t make this hang up on purity any less loathsome to enlightened people in the 21st century. </p>
<p>The outrage was at the stupidity of the man in thinking this was a big deal. It is a huge bummer that people feel the need to force people not to be stupid and often cry out that there &#8220;outta be a law&#8221; every time something lame like this happens but that doesn&#8217;t take away from the fact that this was a lame thing to do. It shows that the Man is an unenlightened and ungentlemanly clot without a shred of compassion.</p>
<p>Sarkozy is a populist tool for suggesting a change of the law. Why lumber her with this man for life? Sure the instinct to coerce, to ban is awful but I find the sentiment behind it to be spot on.</p>
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		<title>By: G-man</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-100865</link>
		<dc:creator>G-man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/#comment-100865</guid>
		<description>And I wouldn&#039;t mind some solid evidence on the Adam and Eve thingy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I wouldn&#8217;t mind some solid evidence on the Adam and Eve thingy.</p>
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		<title>By: Eudaemonion</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-100634</link>
		<dc:creator>Eudaemonion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/#comment-100634</guid>
		<description>You are going to have to qualify your polyandry statement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are going to have to qualify your polyandry statement.</p>
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		<title>By: James (San Deigo)</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-100398</link>
		<dc:creator>James (San Deigo)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:44:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/#comment-100398</guid>
		<description>First off Auzie Aboriginals get away with Polygamy for two definite reasons.  One, they were practicing before white settlers arrived.  Two, they are still second class citizens in the land down under and thus get second class protection from the law.  There is a weird two-tiered bigotry going on here.  The bigotry of the right which is your standard bigotry of Aboriginals being less than, or sub human.  Then there is the soft bigotry of the left.  This bigotry goes overboard in the opposite direction.  It holds native people as exemplars of prelapsarian man.  Nether side wants to really deal with the facts on the ground; of a shattered people and their shattered culture.  Before European contact the Aboriginal culture had mechanism to deal with polygamy and its attendant issues.  Thanks to the injection of European culture  that is no longer the case.  Trading off one ill adapted monotheistic culture for another is  a solution looking for a problem.  It is very unlikely that the Austrolabe denizens would advocate the return of polytheistic religion to the Aboriginals.   Thing is polytheism and polygamy went hand in hand in pre-European Aboriginal culture.

As for recognizing polygamy in Australia; it is not going to happen unless one recognizes polyandry. Not only polyandry but group marriage and partner swapping.  This is best thought of as the Bob&amp;Carol&amp;Ted&amp;Alice option.  From an Islamic point of view of course it does not work. From an equal protection view it follows necessarily if you allow non-monogamous marriage.  

From a human sexuality point of reference polyandry make much more sense than polygamy.  From a public health point of reference neither Polygamy nor Polyandry make much sense.  Each partner one adds to the equation increases ones risk from a STD point of reference.  Only abstinence is fool-proof from a public health point of view.  Faithful monogamy with condom use is the next best default. Monogamy without condoms is barely acceptable and least safe is multiple partners without using condoms.  Having multiple wives does not decrease the odds of straying but does increase the odds of getting and spreading fungal based STDs.  So even if you are faithful to your four wives the odds of catching a NSU (non specific urethritis) increase.  Of course if you or your wife strays then the Typhoid Mary option comes into play.

Finally let us be real.  Except in extraordinary circumstances polygamy has always ended up being misogynistic and patriarchal.   That is the norm.  The man lords over the woman in a cruel, despotic, and arbitrary manner.   Young frightened girls barely into puberty (and sometimes not even in puberty) are handed over to much older men for their sexual debaucheries.  Polygamy without fail reduces women (as an aggregate) to chattel.  Only the best and most saintly of men can avoid becoming petty tyrants in their own home.  Only the best and most saintly of men can treat multiple wives with the equanimity and respect due to each of them.  The Islamic rules for multiple marriage are of very limited value; the law can only do so much to regulate the human heart. Even in the best of worlds polygamy without polyandry is at base unfair and places women at a disadvantage.  In the world we live in polygamy is always a male power play over women.  It is always a way to suppress women and degrade them.  It is  not  a sign of holiness,  it is actually often a sign of being out of god&#039;s good graces.  Just ask the original Suleiman (Solomon) of the bible ; multiple marriages can only cause you grief no matter how rich or wise you are.  Remember Allah/God made Adam and Eve not Adam, Eve, Mary, Joan, &amp; Britney.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First off Auzie Aboriginals get away with Polygamy for two definite reasons.  One, they were practicing before white settlers arrived.  Two, they are still second class citizens in the land down under and thus get second class protection from the law.  There is a weird two-tiered bigotry going on here.  The bigotry of the right which is your standard bigotry of Aboriginals being less than, or sub human.  Then there is the soft bigotry of the left.  This bigotry goes overboard in the opposite direction.  It holds native people as exemplars of prelapsarian man.  Nether side wants to really deal with the facts on the ground; of a shattered people and their shattered culture.  Before European contact the Aboriginal culture had mechanism to deal with polygamy and its attendant issues.  Thanks to the injection of European culture  that is no longer the case.  Trading off one ill adapted monotheistic culture for another is  a solution looking for a problem.  It is very unlikely that the Austrolabe denizens would advocate the return of polytheistic religion to the Aboriginals.   Thing is polytheism and polygamy went hand in hand in pre-European Aboriginal culture.</p>
<p>As for recognizing polygamy in Australia; it is not going to happen unless one recognizes polyandry. Not only polyandry but group marriage and partner swapping.  This is best thought of as the Bob&amp;Carol&amp;Ted&amp;Alice option.  From an Islamic point of view of course it does not work. From an equal protection view it follows necessarily if you allow non-monogamous marriage.  </p>
<p>From a human sexuality point of reference polyandry make much more sense than polygamy.  From a public health point of reference neither Polygamy nor Polyandry make much sense.  Each partner one adds to the equation increases ones risk from a STD point of reference.  Only abstinence is fool-proof from a public health point of view.  Faithful monogamy with condom use is the next best default. Monogamy without condoms is barely acceptable and least safe is multiple partners without using condoms.  Having multiple wives does not decrease the odds of straying but does increase the odds of getting and spreading fungal based STDs.  So even if you are faithful to your four wives the odds of catching a NSU (non specific urethritis) increase.  Of course if you or your wife strays then the Typhoid Mary option comes into play.</p>
<p>Finally let us be real.  Except in extraordinary circumstances polygamy has always ended up being misogynistic and patriarchal.   That is the norm.  The man lords over the woman in a cruel, despotic, and arbitrary manner.   Young frightened girls barely into puberty (and sometimes not even in puberty) are handed over to much older men for their sexual debaucheries.  Polygamy without fail reduces women (as an aggregate) to chattel.  Only the best and most saintly of men can avoid becoming petty tyrants in their own home.  Only the best and most saintly of men can treat multiple wives with the equanimity and respect due to each of them.  The Islamic rules for multiple marriage are of very limited value; the law can only do so much to regulate the human heart. Even in the best of worlds polygamy without polyandry is at base unfair and places women at a disadvantage.  In the world we live in polygamy is always a male power play over women.  It is always a way to suppress women and degrade them.  It is  not  a sign of holiness,  it is actually often a sign of being out of god&#8217;s good graces.  Just ask the original Suleiman (Solomon) of the bible ; multiple marriages can only cause you grief no matter how rich or wise you are.  Remember Allah/God made Adam and Eve not Adam, Eve, Mary, Joan, &amp; Britney.</p>
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		<title>By: Zanjabila</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-99501</link>
		<dc:creator>Zanjabila</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/#comment-99501</guid>
		<description>What a traumatic experience for the woman. It would have been more gentlemanly for the man to have divorced her discretely. Everyone&#039;s discusing the legal aspects, and forgetting the human one...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a traumatic experience for the woman. It would have been more gentlemanly for the man to have divorced her discretely. Everyone&#8217;s discusing the legal aspects, and forgetting the human one&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Abdul Rahman</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-97543</link>
		<dc:creator>Abdul Rahman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/#comment-97543</guid>
		<description>&quot;or they have multiple monogamous civil marriages and divorces but without effecting any religious divorces.&quot;
Each one of those divorces would be an irrevocable divorce.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;or they have multiple monogamous civil marriages and divorces but without effecting any religious divorces.&#8221;<br />
Each one of those divorces would be an irrevocable divorce.</p>
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		<title>By: antish</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-96786</link>
		<dc:creator>antish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:00:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/#comment-96786</guid>
		<description>Umm Yasmin, I know that&#039;s the case, but I&#039;m wondering what in fact the legal disabilities of wife/husband #2-n actually are. Or if any of these difficulties aren&#039;t readily solvable by a good contract. (I know that for many the social recognition of a sanctioned marriage is important, I&#039;m only wondering about actual legal impediments here.)

&quot;The problem is that it can leave the women without legal protections, because these marriages are not recognised as existing (even though they do in reality).&quot;

Not legally recognised in the sense of a marriage, but is there anything that a good contract wouldn&#039;t solve? I suppose that if the father and mother both died, a child of a multi-partner relationship might not automatically remain in its custody, but you could put a pretty good case.

IM, is that correct? I know that it would be easy to cheat the social security system if you were in a multi-partner &#039;marriage&#039;, but wouldn&#039;t still be against the law to not declare the income and support-in-kind you were receiving, whether married or not?

And anyway, plenty of homophobes would prefer that gay couples still had the opportunity to milk social security rather than have their &#039;marriages&#039; recognised and lose that loophole. And there are a lot more gays in Australia than (straight) Muslims.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Umm Yasmin, I know that&#8217;s the case, but I&#8217;m wondering what in fact the legal disabilities of wife/husband #2-n actually are. Or if any of these difficulties aren&#8217;t readily solvable by a good contract. (I know that for many the social recognition of a sanctioned marriage is important, I&#8217;m only wondering about actual legal impediments here.)</p>
<p>&#8220;The problem is that it can leave the women without legal protections, because these marriages are not recognised as existing (even though they do in reality).&#8221;</p>
<p>Not legally recognised in the sense of a marriage, but is there anything that a good contract wouldn&#8217;t solve? I suppose that if the father and mother both died, a child of a multi-partner relationship might not automatically remain in its custody, but you could put a pretty good case.</p>
<p>IM, is that correct? I know that it would be easy to cheat the social security system if you were in a multi-partner &#8216;marriage&#8217;, but wouldn&#8217;t still be against the law to not declare the income and support-in-kind you were receiving, whether married or not?</p>
<p>And anyway, plenty of homophobes would prefer that gay couples still had the opportunity to milk social security rather than have their &#8216;marriages&#8217; recognised and lose that loophole. And there are a lot more gays in Australia than (straight) Muslims.</p>
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		<title>By: IM</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-96778</link>
		<dc:creator>IM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:46:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/#comment-96778</guid>
		<description>When polygny is outlawed and people who attempt to register &gt;1 marriage get charged with bigamy, it means the people who have those relationships can&#039;t register their second marriage and so the wife can claim single parent benefits (legally).  Is that what people want?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When polygny is outlawed and people who attempt to register &gt;1 marriage get charged with bigamy, it means the people who have those relationships can&#8217;t register their second marriage and so the wife can claim single parent benefits (legally).  Is that what people want?</p>
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		<title>By: Umm Yasmin</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-96764</link>
		<dc:creator>Umm Yasmin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/#comment-96764</guid>
		<description>As for the Australian government coming to grips with polygyny. There&#039;s a good article on the reality of the plurality of legal systems in the UK but essentially, the reality is that polygyny *does* exist in Australia, and how Muslims and Aborigines (who practice polygyny) get around it is by simply not registering one or all of the marriages with the state.  They have religious ceremonies only, or they have multiple monogamous civil marriages and divorces but without effecting any religious divorces.

The problem is that it can leave the women without legal protections, because these marriages are not recognised as existing (even though they do in reality). It is not unknown for a man to seek the rights and privileges of polygyny without sticking around for the burdens and responsibilities of multiple marriages. At least with a recognised shari&#039;a system in play these men would be held accountable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for the Australian government coming to grips with polygyny. There&#8217;s a good article on the reality of the plurality of legal systems in the UK but essentially, the reality is that polygyny *does* exist in Australia, and how Muslims and Aborigines (who practice polygyny) get around it is by simply not registering one or all of the marriages with the state.  They have religious ceremonies only, or they have multiple monogamous civil marriages and divorces but without effecting any religious divorces.</p>
<p>The problem is that it can leave the women without legal protections, because these marriages are not recognised as existing (even though they do in reality). It is not unknown for a man to seek the rights and privileges of polygyny without sticking around for the burdens and responsibilities of multiple marriages. At least with a recognised shari&#8217;a system in play these men would be held accountable.</p>
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		<title>By: Umm Yasmin</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-96763</link>
		<dc:creator>Umm Yasmin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/06/05/french-judge-annuls-muslim-marriage-over-virginity-lie/#comment-96763</guid>
		<description>Another un-expected benefit of polygyny is that it allows women with different proclivities to have more than one set of needs fulfilled.  For example, for women who are very career-driven but do want to have children, or for women who love heaps of kids but might have fertility issues, then a polygynous arrangement could work out very advantageous.  Childcare is &#039;in-house&#039; for the working woman and on the other hand, polygyny could provide a wider network of love and kids for women who are fertility-challenged.

Polygyny won&#039;t work for everyone, but it does work for some. (I&#039;ve got about half a dozen friends who are co-wives and none of them to each other.) Like any form of marriage, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn&#039;t. Having said that, polygyny would probably highlight the difficulties in a bad marriage much quicker.

Problems with polyandry (as I see them, but hey whatever floats your boat): the fact that it takes nine-months to gestate a baby makes polyandry awkward and tiring for the woman if all the husbands want kids.  

Polygyny is still a closed system, but if you allow polyandry too, then there is nothing to prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases (theoretically each man could have four wives, and each woman four husbands and so on and so on and so on).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another un-expected benefit of polygyny is that it allows women with different proclivities to have more than one set of needs fulfilled.  For example, for women who are very career-driven but do want to have children, or for women who love heaps of kids but might have fertility issues, then a polygynous arrangement could work out very advantageous.  Childcare is &#8216;in-house&#8217; for the working woman and on the other hand, polygyny could provide a wider network of love and kids for women who are fertility-challenged.</p>
<p>Polygyny won&#8217;t work for everyone, but it does work for some. (I&#8217;ve got about half a dozen friends who are co-wives and none of them to each other.) Like any form of marriage, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn&#8217;t. Having said that, polygyny would probably highlight the difficulties in a bad marriage much quicker.</p>
<p>Problems with polyandry (as I see them, but hey whatever floats your boat): the fact that it takes nine-months to gestate a baby makes polyandry awkward and tiring for the woman if all the husbands want kids.  </p>
<p>Polygyny is still a closed system, but if you allow polyandry too, then there is nothing to prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases (theoretically each man could have four wives, and each woman four husbands and so on and so on and so on).</p>
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