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	<title>Comments on: Shariah Courts in the UK</title>
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		<title>By: Cinna</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-147144</link>
		<dc:creator>Cinna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The European laws on human rights mean that these panels will be obliged to reach verdicts not incompatible with European law. The one difference is that they will probably be bob-confrontational, more informal, quicker and cheaper. Yes, there is a possibility that compulsion will be brought on people to attend them and to accept the verdict; however bringing such compulsion is a crime under any law system and so would be a risky thing to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The European laws on human rights mean that these panels will be obliged to reach verdicts not incompatible with European law. The one difference is that they will probably be bob-confrontational, more informal, quicker and cheaper. Yes, there is a possibility that compulsion will be brought on people to attend them and to accept the verdict; however bringing such compulsion is a crime under any law system and so would be a risky thing to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Eudaemonion</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-146973</link>
		<dc:creator>Eudaemonion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 18:07:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The goose in this particular case are the Jewish arbitration courts already in practice. The gander is the proposed Muslim arbitration courts. Rather straightforward, really. You&#039;ll have to quantify the hellhole statement though. Rather lacking in sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The goose in this particular case are the Jewish arbitration courts already in practice. The gander is the proposed Muslim arbitration courts. Rather straightforward, really. You&#8217;ll have to quantify the hellhole statement though. Rather lacking in sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Abdul Rahman</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-146023</link>
		<dc:creator>Abdul Rahman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 10:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/#comment-146023</guid>
		<description>It is a weird sort of &quot;cultural imperialism&quot; that is so inward looking that it manifests as a &quot;court&quot; which only applies to a specific community and then only if both parties agree to use it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a weird sort of &#8220;cultural imperialism&#8221; that is so inward looking that it manifests as a &#8220;court&#8221; which only applies to a specific community and then only if both parties agree to use it.</p>
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		<title>By: G-man</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-145989</link>
		<dc:creator>G-man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 08:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/#comment-145989</guid>
		<description>What strange comments. Who are the goose and the gander in this particular equation? And it&#039;s a good question as to where he would move if he doesn&#039;t like it. I don&#039;t think he will move at all. Instead, if the situation continues in the same direction, the majority who don&#039;t like this new cultural imperialism will rebel, ugly extremist right-wing groups will soar in popularity, and immigrant groups of all kinds will find themselves in a right pickle. What joy for everyone. 

You do have to wonder what the point of migrating was in the first place if you&#039;re so determined to create a hellhole for yourselves and the people you&#039;ve moved in with. (And please don&#039;t bring up the war in Iraq. I do not support it and in any case Britain is taking in Muslim immigrants by the bucketload as is every other country in the Western world.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What strange comments. Who are the goose and the gander in this particular equation? And it&#8217;s a good question as to where he would move if he doesn&#8217;t like it. I don&#8217;t think he will move at all. Instead, if the situation continues in the same direction, the majority who don&#8217;t like this new cultural imperialism will rebel, ugly extremist right-wing groups will soar in popularity, and immigrant groups of all kinds will find themselves in a right pickle. What joy for everyone. </p>
<p>You do have to wonder what the point of migrating was in the first place if you&#8217;re so determined to create a hellhole for yourselves and the people you&#8217;ve moved in with. (And please don&#8217;t bring up the war in Iraq. I do not support it and in any case Britain is taking in Muslim immigrants by the bucketload as is every other country in the Western world.)</p>
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		<title>By: Abdul Rahman</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-145958</link>
		<dc:creator>Abdul Rahman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 06:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/#comment-145958</guid>
		<description>So James, where will you move if you don&#039;t like it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So James, where will you move if you don&#8217;t like it?</p>
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		<title>By: Eudaemonion</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-145938</link>
		<dc:creator>Eudaemonion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 05:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/#comment-145938</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s good for the goose is good for the gander, James.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s good for the goose is good for the gander, James.</p>
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		<title>By: James (San Jose)</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-144672</link>
		<dc:creator>James (San Jose)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 02:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/#comment-144672</guid>
		<description>This is an incredibly bad idea.  Someone in the U.K. should read Brown vs Board of Education , separate justice is inherently unequal. Separate justice is inherently dysfunctional. 

This whole idea comes out of the soft bigotry of lowered expectations.  &quot;Those poor Muslim dears we can not really expect them to be able to follow our notions of law now can we.  No, they&#039;re just not able to fathom our concepts of civil law.  We give them a nice little card-table to eat at while we adults continue to chat amongst ourselves at the grow-ups table.&quot;

You live in a civil society that has secular laws.  If those laws impinge on your concept of how things should be run you agitate to have those laws changed.  You do not  get to shuffle off and set up your own laws separate from the community at large.  Democratic pluralism only works when everyone participates and everyone agrees on the ground rules.  There are zero Muslim nations that allow Christians to set up there own rules and regulations.  A Christian can not openly drink a beer in public in Mecca.  A Christian can certainly not get a &quot;no fault divorce&quot;  in Egypt no matter how hard they plead. 

In the end I predict that the U.K. will have to shut down this experiment or strictly regulate it to the point that it  becomes moot.  There will be abuses, there will be scandal, there will be stories of women horribly abused or wronged by these courts.  There will be cases of child abuse, neglect and eventually deaths that were egregiously mishandled by these courts.  Eventually the disconnect between secular rule of law and the idea of religious law will become too great to sustain.  

There is a reason why the Christian Church no longer has much say in matters of family law. It is mainly because the state was infinitely more pliable, adaptable and reasonable about how relationships work.  It is because the state had a much lower bar about who could marry whom than the church did.  It is because the state was also a lot more flexible about how those marriages could be dissolved. 

 The state only has pragmatic reasons to support marriage: child rearing, property rights, the stability of its citizens. While the state does support marriage, it is not as invested in the institution as a religion will be.  It prefers stability over chaos and most time that means it is biased toward the preservation of marriage but only to a point.  The state has other considerations to weigh specifically the general welfare of it&#039;s citizens. It understands that sometime a specific marriage is not conducive to the general welfare.  

It is that responsibility to the general welfare that informs secular, civic government.  In a multicultural society everyone needs to accept that base premise.  Ground rules are critical.  If Muslims get there own rules, then what about Hindus?  Should the UK allow child marriage because it an accepted cultural practice amongst some of its citizens?  Should the UK allow the concept of untouchability ?  Untouchability has an excellent Hindu and Buddhist pedigree, lots of holy writ to back the idea up.  Should the practice of immolating a surviving wife be condoned?  Again there is a good religious reason to allow that.  Maybe we can allow the pagans to burn criminal miscreants like they did all those years ago in Celtic times.  You could sell tickets to a real &quot;Burning Man&quot; celebration; it would be a hoot.

Here is a novel idea; how about you accept that you live in a secular, civil society that has a different set of priorities than you do?  How about you accept the proposition that secular civic society of the UK has core values that it has a right to enforce?  How about you accept that those ideas are not Islamic?  Don&#039;t like it? No one is forcing you to stay in the decadent, corrupt, going-to-hell-in-a-hand-basket West. You can alway move to a righteous and pure Islamic country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an incredibly bad idea.  Someone in the U.K. should read Brown vs Board of Education , separate justice is inherently unequal. Separate justice is inherently dysfunctional. </p>
<p>This whole idea comes out of the soft bigotry of lowered expectations.  &#8220;Those poor Muslim dears we can not really expect them to be able to follow our notions of law now can we.  No, they&#8217;re just not able to fathom our concepts of civil law.  We give them a nice little card-table to eat at while we adults continue to chat amongst ourselves at the grow-ups table.&#8221;</p>
<p>You live in a civil society that has secular laws.  If those laws impinge on your concept of how things should be run you agitate to have those laws changed.  You do not  get to shuffle off and set up your own laws separate from the community at large.  Democratic pluralism only works when everyone participates and everyone agrees on the ground rules.  There are zero Muslim nations that allow Christians to set up there own rules and regulations.  A Christian can not openly drink a beer in public in Mecca.  A Christian can certainly not get a &#8220;no fault divorce&#8221;  in Egypt no matter how hard they plead. </p>
<p>In the end I predict that the U.K. will have to shut down this experiment or strictly regulate it to the point that it  becomes moot.  There will be abuses, there will be scandal, there will be stories of women horribly abused or wronged by these courts.  There will be cases of child abuse, neglect and eventually deaths that were egregiously mishandled by these courts.  Eventually the disconnect between secular rule of law and the idea of religious law will become too great to sustain.  </p>
<p>There is a reason why the Christian Church no longer has much say in matters of family law. It is mainly because the state was infinitely more pliable, adaptable and reasonable about how relationships work.  It is because the state had a much lower bar about who could marry whom than the church did.  It is because the state was also a lot more flexible about how those marriages could be dissolved. </p>
<p> The state only has pragmatic reasons to support marriage: child rearing, property rights, the stability of its citizens. While the state does support marriage, it is not as invested in the institution as a religion will be.  It prefers stability over chaos and most time that means it is biased toward the preservation of marriage but only to a point.  The state has other considerations to weigh specifically the general welfare of it&#8217;s citizens. It understands that sometime a specific marriage is not conducive to the general welfare.  </p>
<p>It is that responsibility to the general welfare that informs secular, civic government.  In a multicultural society everyone needs to accept that base premise.  Ground rules are critical.  If Muslims get there own rules, then what about Hindus?  Should the UK allow child marriage because it an accepted cultural practice amongst some of its citizens?  Should the UK allow the concept of untouchability ?  Untouchability has an excellent Hindu and Buddhist pedigree, lots of holy writ to back the idea up.  Should the practice of immolating a surviving wife be condoned?  Again there is a good religious reason to allow that.  Maybe we can allow the pagans to burn criminal miscreants like they did all those years ago in Celtic times.  You could sell tickets to a real &#8220;Burning Man&#8221; celebration; it would be a hoot.</p>
<p>Here is a novel idea; how about you accept that you live in a secular, civil society that has a different set of priorities than you do?  How about you accept the proposition that secular civic society of the UK has core values that it has a right to enforce?  How about you accept that those ideas are not Islamic?  Don&#8217;t like it? No one is forcing you to stay in the decadent, corrupt, going-to-hell-in-a-hand-basket West. You can alway move to a righteous and pure Islamic country.</p>
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		<title>By: Eudaemonion</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-141028</link>
		<dc:creator>Eudaemonion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 18:08:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/#comment-141028</guid>
		<description>I guess then, that Western Civilisation and Democracy was already taken over by Orthodox Jews yonks ago, and Muslims have only recently come along and relieved them of their burden? 

What kind of batshit world do you freaks inhabit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess then, that Western Civilisation and Democracy was already taken over by Orthodox Jews yonks ago, and Muslims have only recently come along and relieved them of their burden? </p>
<p>What kind of batshit world do you freaks inhabit?</p>
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		<title>By: heidifromoz</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-138710</link>
		<dc:creator>heidifromoz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/#comment-138710</guid>
		<description>Yet another example of Western civilisation /democracy being taken over by Islam.  It won&#039;t be long before Sharia law is THE law that dictates in Western Europe.

Put away your freedom girls, and get out your hijabs!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yet another example of Western civilisation /democracy being taken over by Islam.  It won&#8217;t be long before Sharia law is THE law that dictates in Western Europe.</p>
<p>Put away your freedom girls, and get out your hijabs!</p>
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		<title>By: antish</title>
		<link>http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-138495</link>
		<dc:creator>antish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austrolabe.com/2008/09/21/shariah-courts-in-the-uk/#comment-138495</guid>
		<description>I agree that the idea of having arbitration decide non-criminal matter is fine (and there has been a Jewish equivalent operating in the UK for about a century, IIRC).

However given the ghettoization of some of the UK&#039;s Muslim popuation - which lead directly to 7/7 - the idea of helping to create a completely self-contained world which can live apart from the mainstream UK is surely a worry for Muslims as well as non-Muslims.

I hope that these sorts of tribunals have strong legal oversight and must openly publish their decisions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the idea of having arbitration decide non-criminal matter is fine (and there has been a Jewish equivalent operating in the UK for about a century, IIRC).</p>
<p>However given the ghettoization of some of the UK&#8217;s Muslim popuation &#8211; which lead directly to 7/7 &#8211; the idea of helping to create a completely self-contained world which can live apart from the mainstream UK is surely a worry for Muslims as well as non-Muslims.</p>
<p>I hope that these sorts of tribunals have strong legal oversight and must openly publish their decisions.</p>
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